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Old 11-05-2010, 02:41 PM
 
14,660 posts, read 7,457,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Let me perhaps make this trinity issue clearer.
I believe that men in those days did not see God the Father and that includes Moses. They dealt with angels who were given titles like Lord, Jehova , Eloim etc.
In a sense, you are correct, as they only perceived the Spirit through those who professed to be the righteous representative, or messenger of the TRUE and LIVING SPIRIT.

Last edited by Jerwade; 11-05-2010 at 02:47 PM.. Reason: But, you are not in need that man teach you!
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:35 PM
 
18,164 posts, read 13,881,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Let me perhaps make this trinity issue clearer.

If you melt a BAR of Gold to different shapes, it is still gold, or not? John chapter 1, attempts to define this clearly by telling us about the pre-existence of God, The Word of God and (though not stated) The Holy Spirit. Since we are in the image of God, we are made up of Spirit, blood and water. The godly component in us is our Spirit, which like God is invisible and never dies.

Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God the Father, since the Father exist as a spirit in the spiritual plane. However, Jesus being the word of God is a creation of God the Father himself. Like in all human beings, we exist with our word, but the control is from us (our spirit) to our word and not (hopefully) the other way round. Thus God the Father is also in complete control of God the Word or the Son. The Godhead can manifest individually ie
Son --- Jesus,
Holy Spirit ----Dove

from John 14 we are told that

Holy Spirit will manifest as another Comforter or God the Father

So I completely agree with Mike wrt to the trinity doctrine. However, some of Mike's interpretation of the old testament events like claiming the 'angel of the Lord' is Jesus is clearly incorrect. If we believe the testimony OF JESUS AND THE REASONING BEHIND HIS COMING, we should realize that after Adam sinned, God the Father was not relating with people directly. He needed a ritual to be conducted to reconcile us to himself - He needed a sinless blood to atone for mankind and he out of love provided himself - his word, to manifest into the body of Jesus.

I believe that men in those days did not see God the Father and that includes Moses. They dealt with angels who were given titles like Lord, Jehova , Eloim etc.
No, you are not at all in agreement with me on the trinity. You have presented a false view of the triune nature of God for you have distorted it into something akin to Modulism. God has not manifested Himself into three different forms. God is described as three distinct Persons who are united in their essence. Modulism, Sabellianism, and Monarchianism are heresies which came about in an attempt to understand the trinity, and they are wrong.

What are Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism?

Jesus Christ is the angel of the LORD. Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Godhead. No man has seen the Father. The angel of the LORD is described as Jehovah. The angel of the LORD is a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus is not an angel. The term 'Angel of the LORD' is simply a title for His appearances in the Old Testament.

Below are three separate sites to which I have given excerpts. Those of you reading this who don't understand that the angel of the Lord is a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, go into each of these sites and study the material. You may still disagree, and you will be wrong, but at least you will know what you are disagreeing with. And you will still be wrong.

Excerpt:
Bible-believing Christians have recognized the angel of the LORD to be none other than the pre-incarnate Christ who appeared to men at certain times during the Old Testament period. As we shall see, the Bible clearly identifies the angel of the LORD as Jehovah and as God. This poses a serious problem for Jehovah’s Witnesses and others who deny the deity of Christ and who deny the Trinity.

The Full Deity of the Angel of the LORD

Excerpt:
And yet, there are occurrences, especially in the Old Testament where individuals saw the LORD. If no one has seen the Father at any time, who is it that was seen by these folks? Who is it that appeared to Abraham saying, "I am Almighty God..." (Genesis 17:1)?

Looking Unto Jesus - The Angel Of The LORD - Limestone Church of Christ

Excerpt:
Then the Angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am.' He said, 'Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 'I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.'

Angel of the LORD
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:33 PM
 
271 posts, read 279,168 times
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Quote:
Jesus Christ is the angel of the LORD.
Jesus Christ is the son of the LORD
Jesus Christ is the word of the LORD
Jesus Christ is the mind of the LORD
Jesus Christ is your LORD
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:38 PM
 
910 posts, read 968,289 times
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Quote:
No, you are not at all in agreement with me on the trinity. You have presented a false view of the triune nature of God for you have distorted it into something akin to Modulism. God has not manifested Himself into three different forms. God is described as three distinct Persons who are united in their essence. Modulism, Sabellianism, and Monarchianism are heresies which came about in an attempt to understand the trinity, and they are wrong.
I guess you disagree with the way I proved the trinity? I only tried to prove the trinity by simply explaining John 1.

John 1: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

Perhaps you need to read my explanation again to understand the point. Am with you on trinity and I do not need to read any other treatise to understand it.

Quote:
Jesus Christ is the angel of the LORD. Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Godhead. No man has seen the Father. The angel of the LORD is described as Jehovah. The angel of the LORD is a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus is not an angel. The term 'Angel of the LORD' is simply a title for His appearances in the Old Testament.
Angel means a messenger , so Christ was a messenger of the Lord if I get you right? I suggest you read Hebrews chapter 1 & 2 to understand the difference between angels and the Word of God. If you read further, you will understand that the only possible manifestation of Christ in the old testament will have to be Melchizedek whose Priesthood is same as Christ. Melchizedek was the guy that Abraham rejoiced to see his day!

I would like to see any quote from Jesus or from anyone in the NT that makes you conclude that the angel of the Lord is a pre-incarnate form of Jesus.
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast
27,173 posts, read 17,903,937 times
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I'm sorry but i keep hearing the trinity explained away and the more it gets explained the concept of it sounds more far fetched .

What is hard to understand about "Hear o Israel the Lord you God is one God", why would you want to try and explain he's 3 of anything ?
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:51 PM
 
910 posts, read 968,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

>>However, Jesus being the word of God is a creation of God the Father himself<<

It is not possible for a created being to be co-equal to an eternal God.
They are of the same essence does not mean that they are equal. For instance, you and your son are of the same essence but perhaps not equal.

If they were equal, Lucifer would have worshiped the Word (Jesus) from the get go.
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:00 PM
 
910 posts, read 968,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I'm sorry but i keep hearing the trinity explained away and the more it gets explained the concept of it sounds more far fetched .

What is hard to understand about "Hear o Israel the Lord you God is one God", why would you want to try and explain he's 3 of anything ?
It need not be confusing. The things of the Spirit do not always mirror carnal things.

Read:

John 17:5

And now O Father, glorify me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Heb 1-8

.. thy throne O God is for ever and ever....
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:08 PM
 
Location: East Coast
27,173 posts, read 17,903,937 times
Reputation: 1878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
It need not be confusing. The things of the Spirit do not always mirror carnal things.

Read:

John 17:5

And now O Father, glorify me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Heb 1-8

.. thy throne O God is for ever and ever....
If the trinity is true, christianity as butchered the truth of it , that's how badly it's been explained .

how God (one God) anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. Acts 10:38
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,165,312 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
If the trinity is true, christianity as butchered the truth of it , that's how badly it's been explained .

how God (one God) anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. Acts 10:38
It's not true, and we are supposed to be one with God, just as Jesus was; I and the Father are one~~John 10:30.

~~John 17:20,21. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message. That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:35 PM
 
18,164 posts, read 13,881,333 times
Reputation: 5968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
I guess you disagree with the way I proved the trinity? I only tried to prove the trinity by simply explaining John 1.

John 1: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

Perhaps you need to read my explanation again to understand the point. Am with you on trinity and I do not need to read any other treatise to understand it.
Unless you understand that the triune God is three distinct Persons who have all eternally co-existed and are co-equal, then you have a distorted understanding of the trinity.

One would think that you would want to avail yourself of information when it is presented to you.

What are Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism?

Quote:
Angel means a messenger , so Christ was a messenger of the Lord if I get you right? I suggest you read Hebrews chapter 1 & 2 to understand the difference between angels and the Word of God. If you read further, you will understand that the only possible manifestation of Christ in the old testament will have to be Melchizedek whose Priesthood is same as Christ. Melchizedek was the guy that Abraham rejoiced to see his day!

I would like to see any quote from Jesus or from anyone in the NT that makes you conclude that the angel of the Lord is a pre-incarnate form of Jesus.
I know the difference between angels and Jesus Christ.

There is no quote in the New Testament concerning the angel of the Lord. All information concerning His identity is contained in the Old Testament.

Jesus Christ as the angel of the LORD appeared as a man to Abraham, in the burning bush to Moses, and He made a number of Old Testament appearances.

Only God is Jehovah. The angel of the L0RD is identified as Jehovah and yet distinct from Jehovah. All three members of the trinity are Jehovah. God the Father has never appeared to men. Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Godhead.

So again, I will present these sites for those and only for those who are willing to open their eyes and their minds. I realize that many people have their own unbiblical beliefs and will not listen to instruction.

The Full Deity of the Angel of the LORD

Angel of the LORD

Looking Unto Jesus - The Angel Of The LORD - Limestone Church of Christ
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