Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
[CENTER][LEFT][LEFT] #42
Today, 12:10 PM [SIZE=5]Mike555[/SIZE]
Senior Member befriend
Join Date: Sep 2006
4,097 posts, read 980,625 times
Reputation: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior RESPONSE
***As I have asked and you refuse to answer, if the immediate followers of Jesus claimed that he was divine, why did the Jews allow them to continue to be a sect within Judaism?
>>This thread is about the Old Testaments revelation of the deity of Christ. If you cannot confine yourself to what the Old Testament says about the deity of Christ, then stop posting. The Old Testament was written and completed hundreds of years before the humanity of Christ was born.<<
RESPONSE:
In other word, you can't answer the question.
This thread is going to stay on topic.
Quote:
>>I have another thread in which I have listed some N.T. passages which declare the deity of Christ. And which you have tried to hijack for the purpose of discrediting the Bible.<<
RESPONSE:
None of the synoptic gospels nor Acts of the Apostles describe Jesus as divine. In fact, Peter's speech in Acts 2 claims Jesus was a man favored by God who worked signs through him.
All of the Gospels recognize the deity of Christ. But this thread is going to stay on topic. Refer to the other thread.
Quote:
Quote: You have not credibly "explained" why Jesus became divine. Your assertions are without evidence.
>>Jesus didn't become divine. He has always existed as God. This has been established in the Old Testament and this is seen in my original post. <<
RESPONSE:
According to Paul, Jesus was the first born of all creation. In other word, there was a time that he didn't exist.
This has already been explained to you on a different thread a while back.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: ***You have also failed to demonstrate from the Old Testament any passage that says that the messiah was to be divine.
>>That is not true. I gave a passage and explained it. You are being less than honest.<<
RESPONSE:
Then please refresh my memory. I saw no such passage which provide any credible proof.
Post #35.
Quote:
Quote: "The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God."
"The leaders of the people, kings, princes, judges, as holding authority from God, were called sons of God."
No, people in authority, such as judges were not called sons of God. They were refers to as 'gods'. Exodus 21:5 'But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man, 6] then his master shall bring him to ha·'e·lo·him (translated as the judges. The NASB translated it as God.) then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
Exodus 22:8,9 likewise is 'ha elohim' - the judges - who acted in God's name.
Quote:
"And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord:Israel is my son, my firstborn."
>>I have already told you what the sons of God refers to in the Old Testament. The phrase - bene ha Elohim - 'sons of God' , in the Hebrew of the Old Testament refers only to angels.<<
RESPONSE:
No. Israel itself is referred to as a son of God. Son of God did not refer to "only angels."
I am referring to the precise Hebrew term 'bene ha Elohim - 'sons of God' which is used only for angels.
Deuteronomy 14:1 refers to Israel as sons of the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 32:8 son's of Israel.
Exodus 4:22 ''Israel is My son. My firstborn.''
The precise term 'sons of God' in the Hebrew of the Old Testament refers only to angels.
Quote:
Exodus 4:22
Quote:
refers to Israel's privileges as adopted sons. Israel has a national adoption as shown in Romans 9:3b-4. (In the other post, I inadvertantly referred to Exodus 4:22 as Deuteronomy 4:22)
Romans 9:3b '...my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4] who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5] whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Angels were called 'sons of God'. Israel was called 'sons of the LORD your God'. This was by adoption.
Jesus Christ is not a son of God. He is the Son of God. He is uniquely the Son of God by virtue of His role in the plan of God for salvation. The deity of Christ has eternally existed. In accordance with the plan established by the Godhead, the Second Person of the Godhead agreed to come into the world to pay the penalty for man's sins. Therefore, since this plan has eternally been in the mind of God, Jesus Christ has eternally been the Son of God'- which is language of accomodation within a plan.
[/LEFT]
[/LEFT]
[/CENTER]
You messed up on editing this post. The last block above is mine and I will leave it stand as is.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-03-2010 at 10:51 PM..
Mike,
One should expect (to be fair) is if those who are trying to outsmart the truth present their evidence unequivocally to the same standard they expect an answer.
We aren't charged with unequivocally providing answers, that day will come when they'll get the answer directly. Our job is to present and let if fall where it may.
The Trinity can't be explained for good reasons which is because it isn't explainable. But it's incorrect to claim that since something is beyond explaination means that it therefore doesn't exist or is taught.
Only belief in the correct God will save a person. Who God is what seperates the false beliefs from the true one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Our job is to present and let if fall where it may.
So then let this fall where it may: "For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."
What I get from a lot of traditional fundamentalist trinitarians is a version more like: "Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For thou didst not believe the unexplainable doctrine of the trinity".
As this takes the thread off topic, I will not address your second point which is an empty argument anyway. As for your first point about it being redundant, it is not. Both Jesus and God the Father are called Yeh-weh.
And a reminder. Do not attempt to steer this thread toward the reliability of the Bible. That is not the topic of this thread.
Mike, first of all, I apologize for my spelling errors in my last post because I was typing in the dark with a fractured right wrist and I am not the best typist in the world in the first place.
Secondly, I am NOT attempting to steer this thread off topic and I hope the mods are not influenced by your constant cry about that. You claim that the triune nature of god is mentioned in the OT and you turn over every stone to prove it and my attempt here is to show you that no such thing existed in the OT and in fact, the ancients (including the Israelites) did not even believe this and believed that there were MANY gods of which theirs was but one amongst the many. Their theology evolved toward monotheism by the time the Judean people came to represent Israel as a whole thousands of years later.
Yes, I mention redundancy because what sense does it make to say that god inherited Israel from himself? Ask yourself. One inherits something from the hands of another and Deuteronomy 32 is certainly showing this to be the case.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 11-04-2010 at 05:35 AM..
I generally use the New American Standard Bible, and a Hebrew/Greek/English Interlinear Bible.
Thanks for letting me know.
Quote:
Yah-weh was never merely a tribal deity.
No? Let's take a look at Exodus 15:11, Mike.
“Who is like You, O LORD, among the gods?
Who is like You, glorious in holiness,
Fearful in praises, doing wonders?
What gods? Why is Israel's god being compared to other gods if they did NOT exist? The writer is clearly making a case that there are no other gods who is like THEIR god because of the miracles he [allegedly] performed in Egypt.
Let's take a look now at Judges 11 toward the latter middle area of that chapter. Here were find the Israelites locked in a land dispute with the neighboring Amorites during the Judgeship of Jepthath. As a result, diplomats are sent to the capital city of the Amorites to settle the dispute. Notice carefully what the Israelite group says to the Amorite authorities:
"‘And now the LORD God of Israel has dispossessed the Amorites from before His people Israel; should you then possess it? Will you not possess whatever Chemosh your god gives you to possess? So whatever the LORD our God takes possession of before us, we will possess." (Judges 11:23-24)
Note VERY carefully that the Israelites acknowledges that THEIR god [supposedly] gave them whatever lands they acquired through conquest and that Chemosh, the god of the Amorites did the same for the Amorites. A separation is made here and the Israelites are recognizing the tribal deity of another people while recognizing their own. Again, this was the common theology of the day!
Quote:
Yah-weh and El Elyon - Elyown - Most High, are one and the same.
No they WERE not. The later Jewish editors amalgamated their god with the supreme deity of the ancient world so yes, Yahweh does become El Elyon in later Jewish theology.
Quote:
God has many names by which He is called in the Old Testament. Check out the many names by which He is called at these sites.
See above. The popular myth of the ancient world of a newer god taking the lead role from his older father is a common myth of the ancient world. Check Zeus taking over from his father, Cronus. Also check Psalm 82 (I believe) where Yahweh takes control of the court of El to speak to the elohim (the gods) and pronounces his judgment and authority over them.
Quote:
Israel is called sons of Lord God (Deut 14:1) because of adoption. Romans 9:3-5 'For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4] who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and thee covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.
In Exodus 4:22, God says Israel is His Son, His firstborn. This is because of adoption.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible says this...
The Septuagint is very curious, Εστησεν ὁρια εθνων κατα αριθμον αγγελων του Θεου. "He established the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God." The meaning of the passage seems to be, that when God divided the earth among mankind, he reserved twelve lots, according to the number of the sons of Jacob, which he was now about to give to their descendants, according to his promise. Deuteronomy 32:8 Bible Commentary
The phrase 'Bene ha Elohim' - 'sons of God' is in the Old Testament used only for angels. Not men. (Gen 6:2; Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Job 38:7)
Now this is interesting. The idea of adoption is New Testament concept whereby humans are supposedly adopted into the family of god via the death and resurrection of the Jesus guy. Before that, this was NOT the case. True, Israel is referred to as god's sons in the OT, but you and I know full well that the mention in Deuteronomy 32 is about the sons of gods who, due to the obvious polytheistic implications, were later transformed into [created] angels to make it more palatable to the later Jewish monotheists.
Quote:
Before the age of Israel began, there was the age of the Gentiles. God dealt with the Gentiles and revealed Himself through direct communication, angelic teaching, prophets, dreams, and visions. Knowledge of the true God existed from the time of Adam. In time, as men turned away from God, they developed their false gods, stories, myths.
But (like I used to do) you believe ONLY Israel got it correct and they were the super-special group god ordained to entrust with the correct version of the story, right? How arrogant!
Quote:
I don't know anything about the Ugaritic Texts. But they are not inspired by God. Only the Bible is God-breathed.
Of course not! It does not contain what you WANT to believe or what you ALREADY believe.
Quote:
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Jesus Christ IS Yah-weh. So is God the Father.
Keep triple-speaking and you might drive yourself crazy there, Mike. What you just said made not one iota of sense. NO OFFENSE!
Quote:
And you are still attempting to introduce into this thread a skeptics agenda of debunking the Bible. And that is off topic. That needs to end.
You are using the Bible to present your points, right? I was not aware you only wanted a choir of agreement to chant you on. Debunking is also a part of this.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 11-04-2010 at 05:47 AM..
Jesus Christ is always the revealed Person of the Godhead. The angel of the Lord is a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. As the angel of the Lord, Jesus Christ appeared to Abraham in human form, along with two angels.
In Genesis 19:24 Jesus rained down fire on Sodom. Look at the passage. Gen 19:24 'Then the LORD (Yahweh - Jesus Christ - God the Son) rained on Sodom and Gommorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yahweh - God the Father) out of heaven.'
The angel of the LORD is described as being Jehovah and yet being different from Jehovah. In other words, two different Persons called Jehovah. Now the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned in this passage of course, but I included other information on the Holy Spirit elsewhere. And I did end up focusing more on the deity of Jesus Christ rather than emphasizing the Trinity. But the Holy Spirit when addressed specifically, is always spoken of in terms of being a Person separate from the other two Persons of the Godhead. In Genesis 1:1 for example 'In the beginning God (Elohim - the plural name of God referring to all three Persons of the Godhead) created the heavens and the earth. In contrast to verse 2 '...and the Spirit of God (Elohim) was moving over the surface of the waters.'
Go back to the original post and take everything that I posted together as a whole, into consideration.
you said:
Quote:
The Lord, as the angel of the Lord, appeared to Abraham.
why ?
then concluded that he is christ. why ?
If he was Jesus, how does that refer to " Triune Personhood of God" ?
The fire rained on Sodom, You assumed the first Lord is different from the second, why ?
“Who is like You, O LORD, among the gods?
Who is like You, glorious in holiness,
Fearful in praises, doing wonders?
What gods? Why is Israel's god being compared to other gods if they did NOT exist? The writer is clearly making a case that there are no other gods who is like THEIR god because of the miracles he [allegedly] performed in Egypt.
No one is saying that there wasn't the worship of false gods. Idols. The Jews were involved with idol worship. The One true God has revealed Himself in many ways. The Old Testament Scriptures being one of those ways. God said, 'you will have no other gods besides Me.'
Quote:
Let's take a look now at Judges 11 toward the latter middle area of that chapter. Here were find the Israelites locked in a land dispute with the neighboring Amorites during the Judgeship of Jepthath. As a result, diplomats are sent to the capital city of the Amorites to settle the dispute. Notice carefully what the Israelite group says to the Amorite authorities:
"‘And now the LORD God of Israel has dispossessed the Amorites from before His people Israel; should you then possess it? Will you not possess whatever Chemosh your god gives you to possess? So whatever the LORD our God takes possession of before us, we will possess." (Judges 11:23-24)
Note VERY carefully that the Israelites acknowledges that THEIR god [supposedly] gave them whatever lands they acquired through conquest and that Chemosh, the god of the Amorites did the same for the Amorites. A separation is made here and the Israelites are recognizing the tribal deity of another people while recognizing their own. Again, this was the common theology of the day!
Again. There is one True God, and then there are false gods. Idols.
Quote:
No they WERE not. The later Jewish editors amalgamated their god with the supreme deity of the ancient world so yes, Yahweh does become El Elyon in later Jewish theology.
Yes they are the same. And there you go again, trying to debunk the Bible as the creation of man rather then the inspired word of God. I have already provided you with two sites which show that the true God is known by many different names in the Old Testament.
Quote:
See above. The popular myth of the ancient world of a newer god taking the lead role from his older father is a common myth of the ancient world. Check Zeus taking over from his father, Cronus. Also check Psalm 82 (I believe) where Yahweh takes control of the court of El to speak to the elohim (the gods) and pronounces his judgment and authority over them.
Now this is interesting. The idea of adoption is New Testament concept whereby humans are supposedly adopted into the family of god via the death and resurrection of the Jesus guy. Before that, this was NOT the case. True, Israel is referred to as god's sons in the OT, but you and I know full well that the mention in Deuteronomy 32 is about the sons of gods who, due to the obvious polytheistic implications, were later transformed into [created] angels to make it more palatable to the later Jewish monotheists.
But (like I used to do) you believe ONLY Israel got it correct and they were the super-special group god ordained to entrust with the correct version of the story, right? How arrogant!
Of course not! It does not contain what you WANT to believe or what you ALREADY believe.
Keep triple-speaking and you might drive yourself crazy there, Mike. What you just said made not one iota of sense. NO OFFENSE!
You are using the Bible to present your points, right? I was not aware you only wanted a choir of agreement to chant you on. Debunking is also a part of this.
Keep your attempts to debunk the Bible off of this thread. I will report any further such posts as off topic.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
