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Paul went to great lengths in Hebrews chapter 1 till Hebrews chapter 2, to distinguish between an angel and the last person in the Godhead, the Word of God. Let us take a throw of the dice, if God was separated from man by sin, why would Jesus who you acknowledge as God manifest to old testament Prophets as the angel of the Lord in his divine state? What was the mission so hard for angels to achieve that Christ needed to come as a Divine angel? I believe the source of the confusion is the Rev where an angel rejected worship from men, but you forget that by then Christ had shed his blood and the curse on mankind had been removed, so angel worship was no more necessary or excusable. Matter of fact, in this era we are to judge angels!
First, Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. Not the third.
Second, it is man who is separated from God because of sin. Not the other way around as you had put it.
Angel worship was never allowed.
Quote:
Now on Angel Jehova : who gave Moses several laws such as an eye for an eye? Who wanted to kill Moses just for the fact that he forgot to circumcise his son on his way back to Egypt? Does the action of this Angel Jehova depict the action of the Word of God? You gotta be kidding!
Now for the last time, get your eyes on Exodus 3:2. The angel of the LORD is God Himself. Not the Father, not the Holy Spirit, but Jesus Christ.
Exodus 3:2 'And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed....4] When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush, and said, ''Moses, Moses!''.....6] 'He said also, ''I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'' ....14] And God said to Moses, ''I AM WHO I AM'';
Who wrote Exodus 3:2? When was it written? Is factural or allegorical?
Mike555 wrote:
>>Those are three questions and are off topic. They are another of your attempts to steer this thread toward your agenda of debunking the Bible by questioning its validity. Keep it off this thread.<<
RESPONSE:
On the contrary, those are very basic question that underlie the credibility of your whole argument. No wonder you have to avoid answering them.
No fella. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with the so called 'higher criticisms' Documentary Source Hypothesis and its supposed anonymous redacter of the Torah from imagined different authors resulting in breaking the Torah up into J E P D sections.
This thread is not an invitation for critics and skeptics to attempt to debunk the word of God.
This thread's purpose is to show from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is triune.
If you want to try to discredit the Bible, do not try it on this thread. Do you understand the difference???????
No fella. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with the so called 'higher criticisms' Documentary Source Hypothesis and its supposed anonymous redacter of the Torah from imagined different authors resulting in breaking the Torah up into J E P D sections.
This thread is not an invitation for critics and skeptics to attempt to debunk the word of God.
This thread's purpose is to show from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is triune.
If you want to try to discredit the Bible, do not try it on this thread. Do you understand the difference???????
RESPONSE:
>>This thread's purpose is to show from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is triune.<<
Wouldn't the first element of proof be to consider be the fact or fiction of the Old Testament passages you cited rather than just to consider them to be historically accurate?
The historicity or lack thereof of the Bible has been pretty much established in the last fifty years.
However, some stick to their former preconceptions.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-09-2010 at 12:31 PM..
Reason: added insert
Of the Persons of the Trinity, only Jesus Christ has ever revealed Himself in human form. Both the Father and the Holy Spirit are invisible to man. The Holy Spirits role has never been to reveal Himself. After the incarnation of Jesus Christ two thousand years ago, the angel of the LORD is never seen again.
Note that in Judges 13:18 the angel of the LORD'S name is called Wonderful, and Isaiah 9:6 gives the name Wonderful to the Messiah (Jesus Christ).
Judges 13:18 'But the angel of the LORD said to him, ''Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?'' (Literally, incomprehensible; secret)
Wonderful: Hebrew - feliy (pali) from Pele; strong's number 6383; incomprehensible, secret.
Isaiah 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Wonderful: Hebrew - Pele; strong's number 6382; a wonder.
And for those who still don't understand that the angel of the LORD is God Himself, (the Second Person of the Godhead - Jesus Christ),
In the book of Judges, Gideon was afraid that he would die because he had seen the Angel of the LORD, Whom he recognized to be the Lord God. Compare with Ex 33:20. 'But He said, ''You cannot see My face and live!''
Judges 6:22 'When Gideon saw that he was the Angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD ! For now I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face." 23 The LORD said to him, "Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die." 24 Then Gideon built an altar there to the LORD and named it The LORD is Peace. To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Originally Posted by Mike555
No fella. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with the so called 'higher criticisms' Documentary Source Hypothesis and its supposed anonymous redacter of the Torah from imagined different authors resulting in breaking the Torah up into J E P D sections.
This thread is not an invitation for critics and skeptics to attempt to debunk the word of God.
This thread's purpose is to show from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is triune.
If you want to try to discredit the Bible, do not try it on this thread. Do you understand the difference???????
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
RESPONSE:
>>This thread's purpose is to show from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is triune.<<
Wouldn't the first element of proof be to consider be the fact or fiction of the Old Testament passages you cited rather than just to consider them to be historically accurate?
The historicity or lack thereof of the Bible has been pretty much established in the last fifty years.
However, some stick to their former preconceptions.
In it's own time, in it's own place, and on it's own thread, when the topic is whether or not the Bible is what it claims to be. That is not the topic of this thread, and you are not going to steer it in that direction.
Originally Posted by Mike555
No fella. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with the so called 'higher criticisms' Documentary Source Hypothesis and its supposed anonymous redacter of the Torah from imagined different authors resulting in breaking the Torah up into J E P D sections.
This thread is not an invitation for critics and skeptics to attempt to debunk the word of God.
This thread's purpose is to show from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is triune.
If you want to try to discredit the Bible, do not try it on this thread. Do you understand the difference???????
In it's own time, in it's own place, and on it's own thread, when the topic is whether or not the Bible is what it claims to be. That is not the topic of this thread, and you are not going to steer it in that direction.
RESPONSE:
>>This thread is not an invitation for critics and skeptics to attempt to debunk the word of God. <<
Since the Bible clearly isn't, your assertions, in addition to being in error in themselves, are meaningless as evidence.
"There is an enormous difficulty with the interpretation that the name Elohim signifies a sort of plurality in the godhead; for if Elohim implies a plurality of persons, how can missionaries explain that the identical word Elohim in Tanach refers to Moses as well?"
"There is an enormous difficulty with the interpretation that the name Elohim signifies a sort of plurality in the godhead; for if Elohim implies a plurality of persons, how can missionaries explain that the identical word Elohim in Tanach refers to Moses as well?"
'Gen 1:26 'Then God said' The word 'God' here is in the Hebrew, Elohim. EL is the singular form and Elowahh is an expansion of El. Some say that Elowahh is a dual form of El. I have found some information that there is a word -Elohiayim which is the dual form. Dual meaning two. Which ever is more correctly identifed as a dual form, the word Elohim is plural, and in the ordinary sense means 'gods'. But it is specifically used, especially with the article, of the Supreme God.It is sometimes used with regard to human judges - men in authority. But that it is used for the Supreme God is undeniable.'
An example is Exodus 21:5 ''But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; 'I will not go out as a free man,' 6] 'then his master shall bring him to God (Elohim- judges who acted in Gods name), then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
And so it is with Moses. He was in authority over Aaron. Exodus 4:16 ''Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and it shall come about that he shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be as God (Elohim) to him.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
the administration of civil affairs belonged to Moses, and Aaron, though the elder brother, was subject to him; and in this sense Moses was a god to him; and so in after times, the judges of Israel, they that sat in Moses's chair, were called gods, Psalm 82:1. Exodus 4:16 Bible Commentary
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Plural of 'elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
The reality of the triune Personhood of God, so clearly presented in the New Testament, is established in the Old Testament. That God is a unified One may not have been clearly understood by the Jews, but neither do many people today understand it. Nevertheless, the Old Testament Scriptures have established the plurality as well as the oneness of God.
1] The use of plural together with singular noun forms.
In Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8, God speaks with reference to Himself in terms of plurality. He uses the words, 'us' and 'our'.
Take a look at Genesis 1:26-27.
Gen 1:26 'Then God said' The word 'God' here is in the Hebrew, Elohim.EL is the singular form and Elowahh is an expansion of El. Some say that Elowahh is a dual form of El. I have found some information that there is a word -Elohiayim which is the dual form. Dual meaning two. Which ever is more correctly identifed as a dual form, the word Elohim is plural, and in the ordinary sense means 'gods'. But it is specifically used, especially with the article, of the Supreme God. It is sometimes used with regard to human judges - men in authority. But that it is used for the Supreme God is undeniable.
Then God - Elohim - said, ''Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;' God is not talking to angels. Angels had no part in the creation process. Nor was God referring to Himself with the royal 'We'.
Gen 1:27 'And God - Elohim- created man in His (His is singular in contrast with Elohim which is plural) own image, in the image of God He created them.
In this passage, God is then referred to both in plural and singular forms.
2] The Oneness of God.
The Hebrew word used to describe God as One, is echad. A comparision of Genesis 2:24 and Deuteronomy 6:4 is in order.
Genesis 2:24 'For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one - echad flesh.
Don't get hung up on the word flesh when relating this passage to Deut 6:4. The idea is that in Genesis 2:24, two are united as one in marriage. And in Deut 6:4, the Persons of the Godhead are united in their essence.
Deut 6:4 'Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yah-weh) is our God - Eloheinu - Elohim, the LORD (Yah-weh) is one - echad.
Deut 6:4 shows the distinction between the plurality of God (Elohim), and His oneness. A united oneness between different persons as seen in Genesis 1:26-27. God is united by His essence - His nature. All three Persons of the Trinity have in equal amounts: Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Eternal life, Love, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.
There are those (aren't there always) who will argue against this proving anything, but compare this with Genesis 1:26-27 shown at the top of the post. And compare it also with the section below.
3] The pre-incarnation appearances of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, known as Theophanies. Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord.
In passages such as Genesis 16:7-13; 18-19; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2-6; 23:20-23; Judges 6:11-14, 20-22; and 13:21-23 God, specifically Jesus Christ, the revealed Person of the Godhead, appears as the angel of the Lord. He appears as a man and is addressed as God.
In Genesis Chapter 18, The Lord, as the angel of the Lord, appeared to Abraham. Three men approached Abraham as he was sitting at his tent door. Two of these were angels, the angels who went and rescued Lot in Sodom so that it could be destroyed, and the other was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the angel of the Lord. Not an actual angel, just a title for His pre-incarnation appearances.
Gen 18:1 'Now the LORD (Yah-weh -Jehovah) appeared to him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Realize what this is saying. God - Jehovah appeared as a man and was offered water and bread by Abraham in verses 4 and 5. God the Father never appears as a man. Yet here is God - Jehovah, being offered food and drink. This is Jesus Christ. The revealed Person of the trinity.
After departing from Abraham, the LORD - Jehovah - Jesus Christ, went to Sodom and destroyed it. Genesis 19:24 'Then the LORD (Yah-weh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yah-weh) out of heaven.
That passage says that the LORD (Yah-weh in human form as the angel of the LORD, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ) rained down fire from the Lord (Yah-weh) from out of heaven. Yah-weh in bodily form rained down fire from Yah-weh in heaven.
In Exodus chapter 3, the angel of the LORD appeared to Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush and identified Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM.' The eternal self-existing one. Yah-weh - Jehovah. The angel of the LORD is always Jesus Christ in a Theophany - a pre-incarnation appearance.
4] The Holy Spirit.
Whereas the Father and Jesus Christ are both referred to as Yah-weh as shown in the above passages, the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity is referred to by various titles.
Genesis 1:2 'The Spirit of God - Elohim.
Isaiah 63:10 'The Holy Spirit'. And here, the Holy Spirit is grieved - atsab- displease, grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest. Only a Person can be grieved. Not a force or an influence.
Judges 6:34 'The Spirit of the LORD (Yah-weh).
Isaiah 61:1 'The Spirit of the Lord (a·do·nai ) God (Yah-weh).
The Holy Spirit is always distinquished by titles such as these, from the other two Persons of the trinity.
The triune nature of God which is so clearly seen in the New Testament is also well established in the Old Testament.
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