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Old 10-30-2010, 11:11 PM
 
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The reality of the triune Personhood of God, so clearly presented in the New Testament, is established in the Old Testament. That God is a unified One may not have been clearly understood by the Jews, but neither do many people today understand it. Nevertheless, the Old Testament Scriptures have established the plurality as well as the oneness of God.

1] The use of plural together with singular noun forms.

In Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8, God speaks with reference to Himself in terms of plurality. He uses the words, 'us' and 'our'.

Take a look at Genesis 1:26-27.

Gen 1:26 'Then God said' The word 'God' here is in the Hebrew, Elohim. EL is the singular form and Elowahh is an expansion of El. Some say that Elowahh is a dual form of El. I have found some information that there is a word -Elohiayim which is the dual form. Dual meaning two. Which ever is more correctly identifed as a dual form, the word Elohim is plural, and in the ordinary sense means 'gods'. But it is specifically used, especially with the article, of the Supreme God. It is sometimes used with regard to human judges - men in authority. But that it is used for the Supreme God is undeniable.

Then God - Elohim - said, ''Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;' God is not talking to angels. Angels had no part in the creation process. Nor was God referring to Himself with the royal 'We'.

Gen 1:27 'And God - Elohim- created man in His (His is singular in contrast with Elohim which is plural) own image, in the image of God He created them.

In this passage, God is then referred to both in plural and singular forms.


2] The Oneness of God.

The Hebrew word used to describe God as One, is echad. A comparision of Genesis 2:24 and Deuteronomy 6:4 is in order.

Genesis 2:24 'For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one - echad flesh.

Don't get hung up on the word flesh when relating this passage to Deut 6:4. The idea is that in Genesis 2:24, two are united as one in marriage. And in Deut 6:4, the Persons of the Godhead are united in their essence.

Deut 6:4 'Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yah-weh) is our God - Eloheinu - Elohim, the LORD (Yah-weh) is one - echad.

Deut 6:4 shows the distinction between the plurality of God (Elohim), and His oneness. A united oneness between different persons as seen in Genesis 1:26-27. God is united by His essence - His nature. All three Persons of the Trinity have in equal amounts: Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Eternal life, Love, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.

There are those (aren't there always) who will argue against this proving anything, but compare this with Genesis 1:26-27 shown at the top of the post. And compare it also with the section below.


3] The pre-incarnation appearances of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, known as Theophanies. Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord.

In passages such as Genesis 16:7-13; 18-19; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2-6; 23:20-23; Judges 6:11-14, 20-22; and 13:21-23 God, specifically Jesus Christ, the revealed Person of the Godhead, appears as the angel of the Lord. He appears as a man and is addressed as God.

In Genesis Chapter 18, The Lord, as the angel of the Lord, appeared to Abraham. Three men approached Abraham as he was sitting at his tent door. Two of these were angels, the angels who went and rescued Lot in Sodom so that it could be destroyed, and the other was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the angel of the Lord. Not an actual angel, just a title for His pre-incarnation appearances.

Gen 18:1 'Now the LORD (Yah-weh -Jehovah) appeared to him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

Realize what this is saying. God - Jehovah appeared as a man and was offered water and bread by Abraham in verses 4 and 5. God the Father never appears as a man. Yet here is God - Jehovah, being offered food and drink. This is Jesus Christ. The revealed Person of the trinity.

After departing from Abraham, the LORD - Jehovah - Jesus Christ, went to Sodom and destroyed it. Genesis 19:24 'Then the LORD (Yah-weh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yah-weh) out of heaven.

That passage says that the LORD (Yah-weh in human form as the angel of the LORD, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ) rained down fire from the Lord (Yah-weh) from out of heaven. Yah-weh in bodily form rained down fire from Yah-weh in heaven.

In Exodus chapter 3, the angel of the LORD appeared to Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush and identified Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM.' The eternal self-existing one. Yah-weh - Jehovah. The angel of the LORD is always Jesus Christ in a Theophany - a pre-incarnation appearance.


4] The Holy Spirit.

Whereas the Father and Jesus Christ are both referred to as Yah-weh as shown in the above passages, the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity is referred to by various titles.

Genesis 1:2 'The Spirit of God - Elohim.

Isaiah 63:10 'The Holy Spirit'. And here, the Holy Spirit is grieved - atsab- displease, grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest. Only a Person can be grieved. Not a force or an influence.

Judges 6:34 'The Spirit of the LORD (Yah-weh).

Isaiah 61:1 'The Spirit of the Lord (a·do·nai ) God (Yah-weh).

The Holy Spirit is always distinquished by titles such as these, from the other two Persons of the trinity.

The triune nature of God which is so clearly seen in the New Testament is also well established in the Old Testament.
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:24 PM
 
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Hint: And they shall become One.
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Hint: And they shall become One.
God cannot be tempted, but was Jesus?
Then Jesus was led up by the SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted by the accuser -- Matthew 4:1

Was Jesus all-knowing?

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the messengers in power, nor the SON, but only the SPIRIT -- Mark 3:32

And was he all-powerful?

The SON can do nothing of HIMSELF, but what he sees the SPIRIT do -- John 5:19

No one is good but ONE, that is, SPIRIT -- Matthew 19:17

Why do you call me good?
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Old 10-31-2010, 03:10 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Mike555 posted:

>>The reality of the triune Personhood of God, so clearly presented in the New Testament, is established in the Old Testament. That God is a unified One may not have been clearly understood by the Jews, but neither do many people today understand it. Nevertheless, the Old Testament Scriptures have established the plurality as well as the oneness of God.

1] The use of plural together with singular noun forms."

RESPONSE:

Using the term "we" is a style of speaking. Please note that the Pope uses it too. (As do I. But I have a mouse in my pocket, so I say "we.")

Why do you think that Jews, who had the Old Testament long before Christians, never read a "Trinity" into it?

Last edited by ancient warrior; 10-31-2010 at 03:22 AM.. Reason: Correction
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Old 10-31-2010, 07:40 AM
 
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Moderator cut: edit The Theopanies, that is, the pre-incarnation appearances of Jesus as the angel of the LORD prove that Jesus Christ is God. It was Jesus Christ who appeared to Abraham as shown. Remember what Jesus said to the Jews who tried to stone Him for saying it? He said, ''Before Abraham was, ''I am'' (John 8:58) It was shown in Exodus chapter 3 that it was the angel of the LORD who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and the angel of the LORD is Jesus Christ. Jesus is Yah-weh just as the First Person of the trinity is Yah-weh.

In Genesis 18:1 Jehovah appeared to Abraham as a man to whom Abraham offered food and water. People, God the Father never appeared as a man. Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Godhead.

Moderator cut: edit

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-01-2010 at 09:24 AM.. Reason: remarks about posts deleted were removed
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Old 10-31-2010, 01:01 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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GREAT posts Mike!!! The ENTIRE Bible teaches the Trinity and that Jesus IS God.
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Old 10-31-2010, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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TESTIMONY OF SCRIPTURE AGAINST THE TRINITY


"The words Trinity, triune, Jehovah-Jesus, God-man, are not in the Scriptures. We nowhere find the expression God the Son, but always the Son of God; nowhere God the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit. The expressions first person, second person, third person, three persons, are not found. Now if the very words, which are necessary to express the doctrine, are not in the Scriptures, how can we suppose the doctrine itself to be there? If the sacred writers meant to teach this doctrine, how is it possible they should not sometimes have used the words which are now used in regard to it?"

"The doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere stated in express terms, while that of the sole divinity of the Father is taught in language the most explicit and direct."

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cmadd01/testim.html

Let's let the readers decide.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 10-31-2010 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 10-31-2010, 08:12 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Really?

Perhaps, then, you'd like to provide and defend the bibical citations you are claiming. Also, perhaps you would like to cite the early Church Fathers on the existence of a Trinity.

The synoptic gospels, do not support Jesus' divinity.

Acts 2:22-24
‘You that are Israelites,listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. But God raised him up, having freed him from death, because it was impossible for him to be held in its power."

Thus Peter says Jesus is a man favored by God whom worked signs through (ie God's power, not Jesus'). Jesus was raised from the dead.

Jesus doesn't rise from the dead by his own power until we reach John's gospel.
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Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
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" Recent scholars have plausibly maintained that the term (the Ebionites) did not originally designate any heretical sect, but merely the orthodox Jewish Christians of Palestine who continued to observe the Mosaic Law......They denied the Divinity and the virginal birth of Christ; they clung to the observance of the Jewish Law; they regarded St. Paul as an apostate, and used only a Gospel according to St. Matthew (Irenaeus, Adv. Haer., I, xxvi, 2; III, xxi, 2; IV, xxxiii, 4; V, i, 3)."

(Catholic Encyclopedia - Ebionites)
Matthew 7:6
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Old 10-31-2010, 08:27 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Good to read Mike.
In the OT, God in the same sentence would refer to himself in the singular and\or the plural.

Genesis 1:26 in which God says, "Let us make man in our own image"

Genesis 3:22 in which God says, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 11:7 in which God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."

Isaiah 6:8 in which God says, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
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Old 10-31-2010, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Good to read Mike.
In the OT, God in the same sentence would refer to himself in the singular and\or the plural.

Genesis 1:26 in which God says, "Let us make man in our own image"

Genesis 3:22 in which God says, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 11:7 in which God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."

Isaiah 6:8 in which God says, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
Thanks twin. Genesis 3:22 and Isa 6:8 defeat the argument of some that God was using the royal 'we'. The singular with the plural denotes conversation within the trinity.
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