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Can't wait for 2012. The church near my house has scary posters planted in their landscape - pics of people running from monsters, on fire, screaming like banshees . . . the kids that go to that church must be traumatized beyond belief. The church services go on for several HOURS . . . you can only imagine what they are telling people in there. I don't understand why anyone in their right mind would choose to listen to that hysteria or give up so much of their time . . . it seems beyond crazy. But I guess if it keeps them off the streets, so much the better, but I do feel sorry for their poor kids who are held captive.
Yea let's kill the republicans especially the fundamentalist christian republicans, it's all there fault what's happening with the world, the world will be better without them
Thank the Lord that He as my back, because i'm sure i would be tarred with the same brush.
That's probably the easiest question I've read in a while.
Seriously, the "mark" is a human number - humanity is born a carnal being, and the nature of man is against the nature of God; the mind is an enemy of the knowledge of Christ, and our very being strives to live in our own...
...in other words, AntiChrist.
Sure you can, and we're supposed to - otherwise, we're going out on the farm and worshipping a lamb. Most of the book is rooted in the symbology of the Old Testament, and we'll find there the temple, the sacrifices, the worshippers, the ark of the covenant, the candlestick, the city Jerusalem, mount Zion, the prophets, the priesthood, the king and the throne, the archangel, the serpent, trumpets, feasts, etc.. Now by the spirit of wisdom and revelation all these things begin to relate to our experience, our life, and our walk in God. We cross the thresholds of spiritual reality where all that was natural and external to Israel in the Old Testament now becomes spiritual and internal as the revelation of Jesus Christ in the elect.
I believe that if we simply read it in the natural, we'll miss the depth of the things of Christ.
Ah well little elmer, we must agree to disagree on this one. If it were only that easy. I would like to be able to spiritualize all the bad things that are coming but to be fair to God's word I must see it for what it is. And the picture painted is very grim for a short time until we really do get to the peace and safety in God's rest.
We agree on this. I'm a 'future-ist'. I do think there will be an end to Adam's subjection to mortality. I guess some people believe that the human race will continue perpetually in this realm of death. I don't believe that and would not want to believe it. The Creation is standing on tip-toe, waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
Amen, yes there will be an end to all of this ugliness, praise God!
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Originally Posted by Heartsong
I think this could easily become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. American Christians are angry and divided and ready to kill. I think this is sad, but I do think it is also true. The hatred in this country is so thick you could cut it with a knife. To everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven. Even war and death has a time and season and purpose. This is not a time for the faint of heart to be alive.
I don't think Heartsong meant that Christians are actually going to start "killing" but she's right about all of the hatred and this being a really tough time to be alive. Those of us who long for the Lord's appearing don't have very long to wait imo. Thank God.
You know I respect you and how far you've come (glory to God).
Consider this: "The night is far spent (AKA: gone on too long) the day is at hand". If Paul said this almost 2000 years ago - I would suggest we need to understand why.
"Because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth - (ie: The ancient systems of error, under which people hated each other, have passed away, ...)
Now you may say "but... people still hate". I say: "Yes - but those of us who KNOW God's complete and perfect love can obliterate the darkness, as any candle instantly does (100% of the time) as long as you take the covering OFF".
Selah my sister.
Thanks FB for saying that!! You know I love you......even though we disagree. You and Elmer are very positive in your thinking and that's to be commended but I'm afraid the reality of the situation is much darkness that only God can correct. No amount of positive or wishful thinking is going to put a dent in the evil and darkness that exists in this world, only our Savior can do that and HE WILL!! I'm very excited that this will all be over soon and we really can enjoy the life that God meant for us to have all along.
Well it's easy to keep saying it's never going to happen when it hasn't happened within 2000 years. But we have to remember that some of the "signs" had not been fulfilled until just recently, such as Israel becoming a nation again and the increase in knowledge, etc. We are on the cusp of "the end of days" but I don't expect you to believe that because you're not a believer anyway. I don't think it's as "clear as day" that the events predicted were for THEM and THEIR generation......it's clear to me that Revelation was for a future generation because none of the prophecies have been fulfilled yet. We know that simply because we're all still here, not to mention that there is no record of these things already taking place.
Right now we're in the eye of the storm. It's all calm and serene, but we're surrounded by the ugliest looming disaster ever. Peace and safety they say, peace and safety. WRONG. I understand you're skepticism, I really do. You're just one of those people that everything has to be proven to.....I wish I could give you a definite timeline but you know that none of us can do that. Therein lies the real problem. All I can do is tell you what I feel in my spirit as of right now, and that's restlessness and uneasiness. Otherwise I wouldn't even bother to respond to your OP. But, could just be gas.
Well, you must realize I am going to keep it more grounded in reality. What, in MY estimation, drives both the preterist, the in-between-ist and the futurist is the NEED to keep the validity of the bible intact. The preterist realizes that the NT predictions are clearly speaking to a contemporary audience of some 2,000 years ago and realizing some of the language is very graphic and often VERY vague and open to all kinds of interpretations, spiritualize the passages. Granted, I will admit that book of Revelation is much about symbolism and leaves room for guesswork when it comes to WHAT you want to fill in the blanks with when it comes to spiritualizing.
The futurist (a.k.a the literalist), also working off of the platform that the bible is pertinent and valid realizes that much of what was predicted, notably, the book of Revelation has NEVER happened and that something they call the rapture still has not occurred so the goal post keeps being pushed back and back and back and back and back and back and back and back and back with each passing generation. Every generation believes they are that special generation that will see the end of time or at least the start of it.
The third option that just cannot be considered by either side comes from the REALIST. I will admit that some of what was predicted did come to pass, but it is quite possible these were things written long AFTER the fact (the temple's destruction, for example) or written within a climate where the possibility of such a thing was impending, as the Jews were practically begging Rome to come and crush their constant insults to their rule. I would not put it past the writers to place words of predictions on the lips of Jesus in their campaign to push Jesus as THE true Jewish Messiah (Matthew), the true anointed "son of god" (Mark) or god himself in the flesh (John).
So let's put this in a better perspective, shall we?
The great Persians who ruled a vast empire (the land of Judah included) for over 200 years had a very complex, but rather, interesting religion. One aspect of their religion was the apocalyptic features which were absent from Jewish theology. Keep in mind that we are talking about 400 years BEFORE the setting of Jesus. One group that emerged from the Jewish community that absorbed much of Persian apocalyptic teachings were an emerging sect known as the Pharisees. Ever their name (which we find no place in the Old Testament) hints at their loyalty to Persian theology as the word "Farsi" or "Pharsi" seems strangely close to their sect name. Not surprisingly, their rivals, the Sadducees, were from the Jewish aristocrats who harkened back to the ancient high priest, Zadok. The primary difference between the two groups was that the Pharisees believed in a new fangled theology of an after-life (the resurrection) while the Sadducees rejected such an idea. this is made clear in the NT.
During Greek rule over Judah, a group of passionate, radical rebels to Greek Hellenistic culture rose to prominence with strong support from the Pharisees. the war against the Greeks gave rise to end times talk, as the Jews believed that god was on their side, would rid their holy land of a pagan, Gentile presence and return the glory days of David and Solomon. The Jews did attain their freedom from the Greeks, but their was one problem when they emerged from battle and set up their monarchy. The ruling family (the Hasmoneans) was NOT from Judah as the radicals believed was to be. Instead, they were from the tribe of Ephraim. They voiced their strong opposition to this and civil war ensued resulting in the slaughter of many Pharisees.
The priesthood was also corrupt and got to the point where it went to the highest bidder/briber. By this time the Greek dominance of the area was wanning and the Roman presence was emerging. A shrewed Idumaean opportunist by the name of Antipas took advantage off all the infighting and managed to gain the trust of the Roman authorities and in time, was able to set up his son, Herod, to sit on the throne of the Jewish people. This was even a greater insult than having the Ephraimite Hasmoneans on the throne because Herod was non-Jewish, and a foreigner from the hated Idumaean culture. This drove the ire of the Jews who saw it as a direct threat to their culture and religion so the stage was set for a showdown with Rome in what many believed would be a battle between the sons of light (the Jews), led by some anticipated hero (messiah) and the sons of darkness (basically, Rome).
Meanwhile, a group of purists known as the Essenes had their camp out in the desert, believing the end of time was at hand and was making preparations for the great cosmic battle between good and evil and the end of the world.
In short, this was the world Jesus was born into and the backdrop against which the Gospels were written - at least Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Well, you must realize I am going to keep it more grounded in reality. What, in MY estimation, drives both the preterist, the in-between-ist and the futurist is the NEED to keep the validity of the bible intact. The preterist realizes that the NT predictions are clearly speaking to a contemporary audience of some 2,000 years ago and realizing some of the language is very graphic and often VERY vague and open to all kinds of interpretations, spiritualize the passages. Granted, I will admit that book of Revelation is much about symbolism and leaves room for guesswork when it comes to WHAT you want to fill in the blanks with when it comes to spiritualizing.
The futurist (a.k.a the literalist), also working off of the platform that the bible is pertinent and valid realizes that much of what was predicted, notably, the book of Revelation has NEVER happened and that something they call the rapture still has not occurred so the goal post keeps being pushed back and back and back and back and back and back and back and back and back with each passing generation. Every generation believes they are that special generation that will see the end of time or at least the start of it.
The third option that just cannot be considered by either side comes from the REALIST. I will admit that some of what was predicted did come to pass, but it is quite possible these were things written long AFTER the fact (the temple's destruction, for example) or written within a climate where the possibility of such a thing was impending, as the Jews were practically begging Rome to come and crush their constant insults to their rule. I would not put it past the writers to place words of predictions on the lips of Jesus in their campaign to push Jesus as THE true Jewish Messiah (Matthew), the true anointed "son of god" (Mark) or god himself in the flesh (John).
So let's put this in a better perspective, shall we?
The great Persians who ruled a vast empire (the land of Judah included) for over 200 years had a very complex, but rather, interesting religion. One aspect of their religion was the apocalyptic features which were absent from Jewish theology. Keep in mind that we are talking about 400 years BEFORE the setting of Jesus. One group that emerged from the Jewish community that absorbed much of Persian apocalyptic teachings were an emerging sect known as the Pharisees. Ever their name (which we find no place in the Old Testament) hints at their loyalty to Persian theology as the word "Farsi" or "Pharsi" seems strangely close to their sect name. Not surprisingly, their rivals, the Sadducees, were from the Jewish aristocrats who harkened back to the ancient high priest, Zadok. The primary difference between the two groups was that the Pharisees believed in a new fangled theology of an after-life (the resurrection) while the Sadducees rejected such an idea. this is made clear in the NT.
During Greek rule over Judah, a group of passionate, radical rebels to Greek Hellenistic culture rose to prominence with strong support from the Pharisees. the war against the Greeks gave rise to end times talk, as the Jews believed that god was on their side, would rid their holy land of a pagan, Gentile presence and return the glory days of David and Solomon. The Jews did attain their freedom from the Greeks, but their was one problem when they emerged from battle and set up their monarchy. The ruling family (the Hasmoneans) was NOT from Judah as the radicals believed was to be. Instead, they were from the tribe of Ephraim. They voiced their strong opposition to this and civil war ensued resulting in the slaughter of many Pharisees.
The priesthood was also corrupt and got to the point where it went to the highest bidder/briber. By this time the Greek dominance of the area was wanning and the Roman presence was emerging. A shrewed Idumaean opportunist by the name of Antipas took advantage off all the infighting and managed to gain the trust of the Roman authorities and in time, was able to set up his son, Herod, to sit on the throne of the Jewish people. This was even a greater insult than having the Ephraimite Hasmoneans on the throne because Herod was non-Jewish, and a foreigner from the hated Idumaean culture. This drove the ire of the Jews who saw it as a direct threat to their culture and religion so the stage was set for a showdown with Rome in what many believed would be a battle between the sons of light (the Jews), led by some anticipated hero (messiah) and the sons of darkness (basically, Rome).
Meanwhile, a group of purists known as the Essenes had their camp out in the desert, believing the end of time was at hand and was making preparations for the great cosmic battle between good and evil and the end of the world.
In short, this was the world Jesus was born into and the backdrop against which the Gospels were written - at least Matthew, Mark and Luke.
I'm always amazed at your knowledge Insane....kudos. And I understand what you are trying to say as I always do and it's important to know what was really going on in Biblical times. However, I believe with all my heart that the futurist position is the correct one when it comes to reading the scriptures. What purpose would there be to even have the Bible still hanging around if it weren't meant for us too? The Bible is a miracle in and of itself.....it has survived. It has things to tell us, it has warnings, it has signs and they are all meant for US. Being "old" doesn't discount it. It's the most relevant book out there but it has to be read properly and studied.
With that said, I have problems with the English version since I have become a CU. I have problems with the OT because I DO feel like it's antiquated and some of it makes me want to vomit. The people were ignorant and had no clue who God was and everything that went wrong was God's fault. I don't like that God is held responsible for human error. BUT, there are many truths in the OT and it's hard to get away from that. How do we know what is truth and what isn't? How do we know that the writers were actually inspired or just hacks who could make up a good story? These are the things I wrestle with. How do we know what to discount and what not to discount? Some will say that "it must be read with the Holy Spirit"..........well.........why doesn't everyone agree then? If it requires the Holy Spirit to discern the scriptures and everyone is claiming they have the Holy Spirit (which they DO if their saved) then why all the disagreement?
Is the answer REALLY the Holy Spirit?? Or is it just plain ol' common sense and reasoning? Some say that "common sense and reasoning" on one's own is the problem.....really? Was I being led by the Holy Spirit when I believed in ET or am I being led by the Holy Spirit now in believing that God is LOVE and will reconcile all of creation to Himself like He promised? You tell me. NO.....I'll tell you. Yes, I am being led by the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit doesn't "possess" us....He is a guide, a comforter. We MUST still think for ourselves and reason these things out.
I'm not done searching Insane.....but I still (at this juncture) believe wholeheartedly that we are the last generation, the ones that all this prophecy, signs and warnings were meant for. It's how I am led, mixed with logic and reasoning. Now argue with that!!
I'm always amazed at your knowledge Insane....kudos. And I understand what you are trying to say as I always do and it's important to know what was really going on in Biblical times. However, I believe with all my heart that the futurist position is the correct one when it comes to reading the scriptures. What purpose would there be to even have the Bible still hanging around if it weren't meant for us too? The Bible is a miracle in and of itself.....it has survived. It has things to tell us, it has warnings, it has signs and they are all meant for US. Being "old" doesn't discount it. It's the most relevant book out there but it has to be read properly and studied.
With that said, I have problems with the English version since I have become a CU. I have problems with the OT because I DO feel like it's antiquated and some of it makes me want to vomit. The people were ignorant and had no clue who God was and everything that went wrong was God's fault. I don't like that God is held responsible for human error. BUT, there are many truths in the OT and it's hard to get away from that. How do we know what is truth and what isn't? How do we know that the writers were actually inspired or just hacks who could make up a good story? These are the things I wrestle with. How do we know what to discount and what not to discount? Some will say that "it must be read with the Holy Spirit"..........well.........why doesn't everyone agree then? If it requires the Holy Spirit to discern the scriptures and everyone is claiming they have the Holy Spirit (which they DO if their saved) then why all the disagreement?
Is the answer REALLY the Holy Spirit?? Or is it just plain ol' common sense and reasoning? Some say that "common sense and reasoning" on one's own is the problem.....really? Was I being led by the Holy Spirit when I believed in ET or am I being led by the Holy Spirit now in believing that God is LOVE and will reconcile all of creation to Himself like He promised? You tell me. NO.....I'll tell you. Yes, I am being led by the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit doesn't "possess" us....He is a guide, a comforter. We MUST still think for ourselves and reason these things out.
I'm not done searching Insane.....but I still (at this juncture) believe wholeheartedly that we are the last generation, the ones that all this prophecy, signs and warnings were meant for. It's how I am led, mixed with logic and reasoning. Now argue with that!!
You know, I rally can respect your position. It is far better than "this is the way that it is! You don't know anything you heathen bastard and god's gonna get you for not agreeing with me!"
There is a little point that is often overlooked by many (including me once upon a time). Apocalyptic writings are NEVER concerned with the distant future. They are writings and pronouncement that arise out of hardships, trials, persecutions, uncertainty and anguish. We need look no further than our modern times. Being a fundamentalist Christian for over 15 years and one who was well caught up in the end time frenzy, I had a large collection of books written by Christian authors (playing prognosticators) who wrote books PREDICTING this and PREDICTING that using vague biblical passages.
I was a Christian during the latter days of the Soviet Union when every move they made was believed to be the precursor to an attack on Israel in a so-called fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39. I purchased a [Christian] book that predicted this invasion and battle. the book even went as far to call the EU Headquarters in Brussels, Belgium as the seat of Satan and the place where the Anti-Christ would emerge from. Decades later, as we can now tell, no such thing happened and we have yet to see some Anti-Christ come out of Belgium.
I was also a Christian when Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait and touted the idea of rebuilding Babylon and called himself the new Nebuchadnezzar. Some guy from the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Ft. Lauderdale (the late Pastor Kennedy's church) wrote a book detailing how Babylon would rise again in line with the biblical predictions and would once again challenge the city of god (Jerusalem). Saddam's dead and Babylon is still mostly ruins.
You can probably walk into a Christian bookstore right now and find tons of books on predictive prophesies with all kinds of interpretations that, as with many others of the past, go the way of failure. You can even turn on your TV to some Christian programming and see the same. In fact, some apocalyptic writings come from plain old newspaper writers who predict doom and gloom just around the corner. I am NOT saying that some of what they predict does not seem very plausible if you have some foresight based on current patterns, but my point is, their predictions and those made by Christian authors are NEVER concerned with the distant future. The OT and NT writers were NO different. In their case, the world, as they knew it, was always about to end and heaven and earth was about to be engulfed in battle before god would re-create order and beauty as it once was in some imaginary, fantasy garden of Eden of the past.
Now on a more personal note, it is not my intention to divert you away from your faith (the OT does say you should stone me to death for that, by the way...lol), but rather, to set the record straight. Yes, I know that sounds arrogant, but even though I am no longer a Christian, I am still a stickler for detail and PROPER perspective even with the biblical writings as I would with any other writing so forgive me for being so anal. Clearly there are people here who can enjoy their faith despite often conflicting details in how they live their lives and what their holy book commands or requires so I guess it is possible to live the Christian life in spite of what the book says and be a productive, decent, well-meaning, contributive, non-threatening individual. I can tell there are a few here.
Finally, thanks for your compliment. I only look stupid. LOL
While we can easily shoot down seemingly unfulfilled prophecies in the past, there is a spiritual aspect that cannot be seen with the natural eye and mind.
Was the EU Headquarters the seat of the Antichrist? Perhaps it was. Was Saddam a nice centerpiece of pure evil? Hitler? Vlad the Impaler?
Evil rages, and will continue until man's system is unseated by Christ's victory. To look for one person to embody the evil of man is to overlook the nature within us - it's a copout.
You know, I rally can respect your position. It is far better than "this is the way that it is! You don't know anything you heathen bastard and god's gonna get you for not agreeing with me!"
That WAS my position at one time, but I would NEVER ever say anything like that to you, or think it for that matter.
Quote:
There is a little point that is often overlooked by many (including me once upon a time). Apocalyptic writings are NEVER concerned with the distant future. They are writings and pronouncement that arise out of hardships, trials, persecutions, uncertainty and anguish. We need look no further than our modern times. Being a fundamentalist Christian for over 15 years and one who was well caught up in the end time frenzy, I had a large collection of books written by Christian authors (playing prognosticators) who wrote books PREDICTING this and PREDICTING that using vague biblical passages.
I think apocalyptic writings are for whoever they apply to. What about Nostradamus? Apocalyptic writings are ALWAYS about the FUTURE, but the writer can't ever predict when. I think it's futile for anyone to bother writing apocalyptic anything....it's just a way to make money and that's all.....be it Christian or secular. I might have shared my visions a couple years ago, but that doesn't make me a prophet. But we know that we can trust the Bible, because it has so many fulfilled prophecies. Then there's those pesky "end times" prophecies that haven't been fulfilled yet. When does it happen then, you say? SOOOOOON, I say.
Quote:
I was a Christian during the latter days of the Soviet Union when every move they made was believed to be the precursor to an attack on Israel in a so-called fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39. I purchased a [Christian] book that predicted this invasion and battle. the book even went as far to call the EU Headquarters in Brussels, Belgium as the seat of Satan and the place where the Anti-Christ would emerge from. Decades later, as we can now tell, no such thing happened and we have yet to see some Anti-Christ come out of Belgium.
I was also a Christian when Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait and touted the idea of rebuilding Babylon and called himself the new Nebuchadnezzar. Some guy from the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Ft. Lauderdale (the late Pastor Kennedy's church) wrote a book detailing how Babylon would rise again in line with the biblical predictions and would once again challenge the city of god (Jerusalem). Saddam's dead and Babylon is still mostly ruins.
Well you know the old saying........"wars and rumors of wars". Just birth pangs. There's always going to be someone trying to capitalize on current events.
Quote:
You can probably walk into a Christian bookstore right now and find tons of books on predictive prophesies with all kinds of interpretations that, as with many others of the past, go the way of failure. You can even turn on your TV to some Christian programming and see the same. In fact, some apocalyptic writings come from plain old newspaper writers who predict doom and gloom just around the corner. I am NOT saying that some of what they predict does not seem very plausible if you have some foresight based on current patterns, but my point is, their predictions and those made by Christian authors are NEVER concerned with the distant future. The OT and NT writers were NO different. In their case, the world, as they knew it, was always about to end and heaven and earth was about to be engulfed in battle before god would re-create order and beauty as it once was in some imaginary, fantasy garden of Eden of the past.
Yes I'm sure you can find all sorts of predictive prophecies and all kinds of interpretations that will simply become extinct due to failure to launch. Why people buy this junk is beyond me. I'm trying to remember who it was that made a prediction, time and date included, that actually came to fruition but it escapes me at the moment....it was on tv, of course. I disagree that predictions are not for the future....that's all they are!! But you're saying "distant" future.....how distant is distant?
I think the OT and NT writers were simply confused and had no clue that they were writing for a very distant generation to come.....after all, Jesus kept them pretty much in the dark concerning things like that. It just wasn't for them to know or understand. If He had told them that they were writing their "predictions" for people 2000 years from then, how do think that would have been received? They would have scoffed at him and asked Him what the heck was the point? They had to be led to believe that all of what was being written pertained to them too. Ergo the "at hand's" and SOON comments. Actually, what was written did and does pertain to them.....they just didn't understand that God's timing is way different than our timing. You know, a thousand years is as a day sort of thing.
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Now on a more personal note, it is not my intention to divert you away from your faith (the OT does say you should stone me to death for that, by the way...lol), but rather, to set the record straight. Yes, I know that sounds arrogant, but even though I am no longer a Christian, I am still a stickler for detail and PROPER perspective even with the biblical writings as I would with any other writing so forgive me for being so anal. Clearly there are people here who can enjoy their faith despite often conflicting details in how they live their lives and what their holy book commands or requires so I guess it is possible to live the Christian life in spite of what the book says and be a productive, decent, well-meaning, contributive, non-threatening individual. I can tell there are a few here.
Ha, reminds me of the "Is smoking marijuana a sin?" thread!! You could never divert me away from my faith, that's impossible. I rather enjoy our understood agreement to disagree....it makes things easier. Aren't we all anal about certain things? I do still enjoy my faith even though I see all of the conflicting details you speak of. I sincerely believe in God and Jesus, the rest is just open to hysteria and misinterpretation. And you're right, the key is to not get too bogged down in the semantics and remain a productive, decent, well-meaning , contributive (apparently not a word) non-threatening individual who advocates for the LOVING God, not the scary and mean God.
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Finally, thanks for your compliment. I only look stupid. LOL
Your welcome and that makes two of us.
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I'm a 'future-ist'. I do think there will be an end to Adam's subjection to mortality. I guess some people believe that the human race will continue perpetually in this realm of death. I don't believe that and would not want to believe it. The Creation is standing on tip-toe, waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God. 
