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Old 11-12-2010, 03:24 AM
 
Location: NY & Fl
10,531 posts, read 6,793,052 times
Reputation: 8385
Can't speak for 'insane', but I wonder the same thing I think he's trying to get at.
In perhaps a less tactful, but clearer way....how can you believe the basic premise of a book that most of you seem able to edit to your own satisfaction?
If you don't agree/like 20 things, who is to say that another 34 things have any truth?...especially when others of your faith all have their own 20 and 34?

Then there are many who state that the Bible isn't necessary at all but I have to ask where you derived your initial beliefs about God and Jesus, if not from it......especially Jesus......that's the only place he is found.
So I have to conclude you started out with the Bible, then rejected it the same as 'insane' did but didn't want to let go of the basic ideas, whereas he had the courage to forego the promises of everlasting life, etc.
Is that throwing out the baby with the bathwater? It sure is and rightfully so, since the baby only exists IN the bathwater.
Since it is doubtful th
at any irrefutable substantiation of the writings of the Bible will ever come to light, it will always be open to interpretation....and apparently even you believers will never agree as to what of it is true.....but will adamantly profess that the parts YOU like are.

It is an often asked question, but seldom answered clearly
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:04 AM
 
4,385 posts, read 2,304,661 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Nice fantasy you got there hljc, but that was definitely NOT the case with me. Sorry. I mean, it's nice being analyzed, but no matter what anyone says as to why or why not, it comes down to what *I* say it was - a finding out that is NO god as spoke on in the bible and no divine son. An itinerant, backwater preacher preaching about a coming kingdom interspersed with a few age-old universal teachings, but that's about it.
saying nice fantasy is the error of the demons who give the logic of anitichrist rebuke this error in Jesus name....... logic is the enemies of Heaven and rejected By Jesus ..... There is Millions of people who know and love Lord Jesus in real person in their daly lives.......
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:25 AM
 
4,706 posts, read 3,598,755 times
Reputation: 969
I sit here smiling because this is great.

Old_Cold, great to see you around again and thank you for filling in some of the blanks. I really hope folks, because of your help, understand a little better now.

Mystic, you are correct, I cannot say with utter certainty there is no god which is why, for the moment, I still consider myself an agnostic, but let's just say there was, which one? Zeus, Brahma, Virachoa, El, Annu, Ra, Yahweh, Ceres, one that none of us knows? Do I mentally invent one to my own liking and interpretation and if I did that am I not creating that god and *I* pull the strings? Would he or she not be born out of my own personal ideals ("he is a god of love," "he is a god of justice," she is a god of beauty," etc.) As someone pointed out, what I have observed thus far, from those who claim they KNOW of this god thus far based on holy books, hasn't it been easily proven that these writings are mere attempts to explain the unknowable including the deities. If we throw out the writings and conjure up some imaginary being that somehow is missed by others, then haven't we created our own personal god to project our own ideals upon?

Camps, it seems you want so badly to use that old overused idea that folks, like me who continue to talk about the biblical god MUST still be restless and the "holy spirit" is still "working on him." Um...no. Again, what you see from me here is no different for what you would have seen 10 years ago when I was still a rabid Christian. Again, I was like Mike555. I would just come out of the clear blue and type up a 27 paragraph thread about why Jesus is the true Messiah or why god is going to bring judgment on America. All without invitation to write such things. While the passion to still write remains, the difference is, I DON'T write in defense of the Christian faith anymore. Rather, to the contrary (even though I have my issues with religion on a whole) I do the opposite which leads to...

As someone pointed out, I RARELY get into nasty posts with people. Not my style. I RARELY argue about whether there is a god or not or whether Jesus existed or not. Rather, I often take the very same bible people read and where many find their foundation for the god they envision and worship and show why that source is flawed (in my estimation) and why it holds no authority for me. If folks want to jump in and debate it, fine. The "well you must be here because you secretly believe in god" or "I don't know why you are always talking about god if you don't believe in him" tactic does not apply to me because my threads are NOT going to be about whether the biblical god exists or not per se, but more about reasons BASED ON THE BIBLE (and other writings of the ancient world) itself why it is very possible he is nothing more than a projection of some ancient peoples trying to make sense of a world around them. I think my style would be akin to what they call the Socratic Method or something to that effect. Take your rival's source and use it on itself.

Moderator cut: reference to moderator actions You will NEVER find me insulting people personally nor do I harbor any anger toward anyone here as I know no one personally to make it that serious. Yes, I have used some scathing sarcasm in the past to MAKE a point, but that often flew over some people's heads. As a result I have toned down that approach.

In the end, I am just a guy, who from his youth, loved to discuss history and love perspective. I recognize the great role religion has played in shaping the world we live in some good, LOTS bad and the bad part still is being pushed around the place. It hits home even more right this minute after helping my son do a project on the Protestant Reformation, the Scientific Revolution and the subsequent Age of Enlightenment. I guess when you really think about it, those three periods tell the story of my life and the lives of so many ex-religionists. You question the spiritual (Protestant Reformation) which leads to seeing the physical entirely different (Scientific Revolution) which brings on enlightenment (the old "truths" you were told were not true all along even if those who told you sincerely believed they were true).

Last edited by june 7th; 11-12-2010 at 02:31 PM..
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:29 AM
 
Location: RI
18,181 posts, read 8,266,227 times
Reputation: 1293
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I think he just feels like he needs to spread the message to the others he left behind, warn others, help them out of their wandering and arguing. Maybe he feels like he saw a light (and maybe he did, partly), and he's trying to tell others who are in the "dark," as he sees it, what that truth is, and he's not often wrong. If he feels led to tell others the "truth", then I don't mind debating with him. Truth is truth. I guess what I'm saying is, if we love truth then we shouldn't be afraid of the facts. He mostly debates using facts, hard data, which I'm rather fond of. That's what debaters are supposed to be using, and I'm always researching and learning. I don't mind the history lessons and what-not. I'm sure we all have a lot to learn. We could use the debates to learn and grow.

Moderator cut: Orphaned reference

Did I miss what you're trying to say?
Moderator cut: Orphaned reference i think he conducts himself very well on this forum, with many a great point and very good questions, and like i said to him with humor, and very satirically. I never would have thought he is warning those he left behind, which is a good point by you. I would say though, that i'm not here to learn from those who reject the Lord about growing in my faith, like i said i hear and understand what and why he walked away from whatever he felt he had in christendom,there's a huge amount that i have and still am doing too, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.My trust is in him, who dwells in me and grounded in what he's done in my life,and the unshakeable fact(truth), that he is with me.

Last edited by june 7th; 11-12-2010 at 02:35 PM..
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Old 11-12-2010, 10:25 AM
 
21,946 posts, read 9,769,441 times
Reputation: 3712
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Mystic, you are correct, I cannot say with utter certainty there is no god which is why, for the moment, I still consider myself an agnostic, but let's just say there was, which one? Zeus, Brahma, Virachoa, El, Annu, Ra, Yahweh, Ceres, one that none of us knows? Do I mentally invent one to my own liking and interpretation and if I did that am I not creating that god and *I* pull the strings? Would he or she not be born out of my own personal ideals ("he is a god of love," "he is a god of justice," she is a god of beauty," etc.) As someone pointed out, what I have observed thus far, from those who claim they KNOW of this god thus far based on holy books, hasn't it been easily proven that these writings are mere attempts to explain the unknowable including the deities. If we throw out the writings and conjure up some imaginary being that somehow is missed by others, then haven't we created our own personal god to project our own ideals upon?
The "spiritual fossil record" provides an evolutionary roadmap of the path to understanding God that is built-in to our DNA. As we do with physical fossils . . . we look for the similarities to discern the basic template and divergences. With the products of human cognition we must also account for the biases of our human frailties (our psychological weaknesses).

If we presume a benevolent Creator . . . ALL the sincere attempts to explain God would be driven by inspiration from God and what is "written in our hearts"(DNA). This enables us to discriminate among the beliefs resulting from human projection of our weaknesses onto God and the benevolence we assume. If we presume a non-benevolent or neutral/non-existent Creator . . . we cannot. These presumptions are unavoidable and our choices define our character and preferences. What they do NOT represent (contrary to the science types and their euphemisms) are SCIENTIFIC ANYTHING!!
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:05 AM
 
16,311 posts, read 13,177,670 times
Reputation: 7925
When I see the title of this tread the thought that comes to mind is "cherry picking the bible to fit your view, and ignoring the parts that don't"
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,840,309 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned You will NEVER find me insulting people personally nor do I harbor any anger toward anyone here as I know no one personally to make it that serious. Yes, I have used some scathing sarcasm in the past to MAKE a point, but that often flew over some people's heads. As a result I have toned down that approach.
Sorry about that, Insane. I didn't know. Yes, I tone myself down a bit, too. I know I've insulted people around here. When you get angry at the ideas of a group, I guess the individuals in that group feel like you are attacking them as well, but I'm the kind of person who may be yelling at you one minute, and helping you the next. Like maybe we are ranting at each other on the sidewalk and you get angry and fling yourself around and start to step into the street and I reach out and grab you to keep you from stepping in front of a bus. I don't want anybody to get hurt, and I won't kill people (indirectly or not) just because I believe I'm right. I'm sure there are many of us like that on these boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
In the end, I am just a guy, who from his youth, loved to discuss history and love perspective. I recognize the great role religion has played in shaping the world we live in some good, LOTS bad and the bad part still is being pushed around the place. It hits home even more right this minute after helping my son do a project on the Protestant Reformation, the Scientific Revolution and the subsequent Age of Enlightenment. I guess when you really think about it, those three periods tell the story of my life and the lives of so many ex-religionists. You question the spiritual (Protestant Reformation) which leads to seeing the physical entirely different (Scientific Revolution) which brings on enlightenment (the old "truths" you were told were not true all along even if those who told you sincerely believed they were true).
The Protestant Reformation got the Scientific Revolution rolling. What happened, though, is everybody got cocky. Isaac Newton is a good example of the right way to go with your knowledge. A lot of people got away from the "flat earth" Catholic church and started running. There were people like Isaac who were intelligent and thoughtful people who studied science and the scriptures and were coming to some very interesting conclusions. They did not throw the Bible out the window, although they realized that uninformed and superstitious men had been interpreting it through very dark eyes. Isaac Newton was one of those guys who didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater, but he believed there was an unchangeable truth out there, and he wanted to know more. He didn't do as the Chinese did in the 1800s (understandably).

The Chinese flipped out because there was some guy who was running around their country starting wars and smashing things to bits because he believed God told him to. He had tons of followers who believed they were going to take the country for God, and destruction and mayhem ensued. The Chinese were like, "Yeah, um, no, we don't want anything to do with this." Stamp: No religion allowed. Believe in the State and what you see. The end.

(And we know how that worked out)

Last edited by june 7th; 11-12-2010 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 11-14-2010, 03:07 AM
 
Location: NY & Fl
10,531 posts, read 6,793,052 times
Reputation: 8385
Well,insane, I guess we can conclude there is no explanation for the actual question you were asking.
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Old 11-14-2010, 05:55 AM
 
4,706 posts, read 3,598,755 times
Reputation: 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Well,insane, I guess we can conclude there is no explanation for the actual question you were asking.
Guess not.
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 3,004,966 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
I can understand your lack of faith, I dont agree with it but do understand it. The verses you so randomly selected such as plucking your eye out if it offends is actually an option to accepting the gospel, you know pluck your eye out or believe in Christ. Thinking that everyone was ignorant or primative could also be another stumbling block to believing. Christ said you must have faith as a child not be childish He even said the meek will inherite the earth, meek doesnt mean week or ignorant but those with faith as a child. He also said He confise them with foolish things and make the knowledgable seem foolish or even make them fools with their knowledge. All in all the truly enlightened are those with the faith of a child which are those who receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the only way you can receive the Holy Spirit is by faith in Christ which many claim but only few actually have.

Hope this helps.
Well since you didnt respond to my responce I figured I would give you another chance.
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