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To avoid further taking a different thread off target, I am answering an argument from a skeptic who has been on this forum attempting to discredit the Bible.
Perhaps you failt once again to grasp the plain meaning of words in the scriptures I quoted.
Both Jesus and Paul taught that the second coming was to being during the time that their generation was alive.
Mark 9:1 And he said to them: Amen I say to you, that there are some of them that stand here, who shall not taste death, till they see the kingdom of God coming in power. (DR)
1 Thes 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. (INV)
The "tribulation" the signs in the sun, moon and stars preceed this return during his generation's lifetime and before Jesus returns with power on the clouds anong with his angels who separate the good from the evil.
Since this second coming failed to occur, of course you'll have to have come up with another explanation.
The claim by the skeptic is that Jesus and Paul taught that the Lord's return was going to be during that current generation. The reasoning is that the words 'this generation will not pass away until all these things take place,' referred to the generation of those to whom He was speaking. This statement is recorded in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32.
If Israel would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, He would have brought in the Millennial kingdom as soon as He had gone to the cross. The cross had to come before the crown. But as He had always known, Israel would reject Him as the Messiah and so the kingdom would have to be postphoned until His second advent. Look at the following passage.
John 17:20 'Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He (Jesus) answered them and said, ''The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21] nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.'' (This was a reference to Himself as the King of the Kingdom).
22] And He said to the disciples, ''The days shall come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23] ''And they will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24] ''For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the shy, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
But now pay attention to what Jesus says next.
25] ''But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Jesus knew that He was going to be rejected by this generation. Because of this rejection of Him by Israel, Jesus lamented over Jerusalem. Matthew 23:37 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38] ''Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39] ''For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' ''
Prior to His lament, Jesus had already stated in the parable of the Landowner that the kingdom was to be taken from Israel.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, ''Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected. This became the chief cornerstone: This came about from the Lord. And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43] ''Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. 44] ''And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.''
From the above statements of the Lord, we know that He was not referring to the generation of people to whom He was speaking when He said in Matthew 24:34 ''Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.'' The Kingdom is related to the Lord's return. And the kingdom had been taken away from 'that generation.'
After the Lord's resurrection, the apostles asked Jesus when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Acts 1:6 'And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ''Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?'' 7] He said to them, ''It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8] but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''
So who was the generation to whom Jesus referred? The ''generation'' to whom Jesus referred is the generation in which the tribulational events described in Matthew 24 occur. The generation of people that are alive when those future events occur is the generation that Jesus speaks of ''not passing'' until He returns.
Did Paul think that Christ was going to return within his lifetime? Jesus had said it wasn't for them to know when the kingdom would be restored. The Lord returns for His bride at the rapture which precedes the tribulation which precedes the Lord's return to establish His Millennial kingdom. And the rapture is imminent. Which simply means that there are no prophetic events which must occur before the rapture can take place. So far as anyone of us knows, that rapture can occur at anytime. And then the events which must take place after the rapture can shape up with great rapidity.
Paul certainly thought that Christ could return in his lifetime. And hoped that He would. Titus 2:13 'looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;'
Paul told the Thessalonians to keep watch for Christs return. 1 Thess. 5:4 'But you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; 5] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6] so let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
But Paul never claimed to know when Jesus would return. 1 Thessalonians 5:1 'Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2] For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.' (That is, unexpectedly).
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:15 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.'
God didn't want us to know when Jesus Christ would return. Paul could have used three pronouns in this passage.
''They'': If the Holy Spirit had directed Paul to say ''they'' it would have been evident that the Lord's return would be at some point after Paul died.
''I'': If Paul had said ''I'' it would mean that Christ would certainly return before Paul died.
''We'': ''We'' is equivalent to those of us who are still alive, and ''we'' is the only pronoun Paul could use that wouldn't restrict Jesus Christ’s return to either before or after Paul’s death.
Neither Jesus or Paul taught that the second coming was going to be during the time that their generation was alive. Paul thought that it was possible.
it's in Hal Lindsey's book,for one...'this generation (the generation that sees Israel restored) shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled'.
that being 62 yrs ago,then some of them are, of course,still alive from that generation.
yes the generation that sees Israel restored (1948) will witness his second coming. this means that at the second coming of Jesus there will be people on Earth who were alive in 1948. the lunar tetrads on jewish feast days right after 1948 did not happen by chance! this just goes to show how close we are to his coming. even though it is so clear that it couldn't be clearer, many still reject this plain and undeniable fact. many choose not to know that this is the final generation.
I agree with what Mike has said here. We are in fact the "last generation", and we will see the coming of the Lord before those 62 year olds age out of here. How much time could there possibly be left if the Bible says a person's life only spans approximately 70 years? This is the time when "at hand" applies!!!
What would you guys believe if you were stood right there listening to Jesus say "This generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened" ?, i know what i would be believing especially when he's speaking directly to them saying such stuff as "If anyone tells you","Now learn this lesson",So when you see standing in the holy place", i certainly wouldn't be thinking this is not for our generation , but for them fundamentalists in the 21st century.
To avoid further taking a different thread off target, I am answering an argument from a skeptic who has been on this forum attempting to discredit the Bible.
The claim by the skeptic is that Jesus and Paul taught that the Lord's return was going to be during that current generation. The reasoning is that the words 'this generation will not pass away until all these things take place,' referred to the generation of those to whom He was speaking. This statement is recorded in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32.
If Israel would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, He would have brought in the Millennial kingdom as soon as He had gone to the cross. The cross had to come before the crown. But as He had always known, Israel would reject Him as the Messiah and so the kingdom would have to be postphoned until His second advent. Look at the following passage.
John 17:20 'Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He (Jesus) answered them and said, ''The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21] nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.'' (This was a reference to Himself as the King of the Kingdom).
22] And He said to the disciples, ''The days shall come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23] ''And they will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24] ''For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the shy, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
But now pay attention to what Jesus says next.
25] ''But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Jesus knew that He was going to be rejected by this generation. Because of this rejection of Him by Israel, Jesus lamented over Jerusalem. Matthew 23:37 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38] ''Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39] ''For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' ''
Prior to His lament, Jesus had already stated in the parable of the Landowner that the kingdom was to be taken from Israel.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, ''Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected. This became the chief cornerstone: This came about from the Lord. And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43] ''Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. 44] ''And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.''
From the above statements of the Lord, we know that He was not referring to the generation of people to whom He was speaking when He said in Matthew 24:34 ''Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.'' The Kingdom is related to the Lord's return. And the kingdom had been taken away from 'that generation.'
After the Lord's resurrection, the apostles asked Jesus when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Acts 1:6 'And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ''Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?'' 7] He said to them, ''It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8] but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''
So who was the generation to whom Jesus referred? The ''generation'' to whom Jesus referred is the generation in which the tribulational events described in Matthew 24 occur. The generation of people that are alive when those future events occur is the generation that Jesus speaks of ''not passing'' until He returns.
Did Paul think that Christ was going to return within his lifetime? Jesus had said it wasn't for them to know when the kingdom would be restored. The Lord returns for His bride at the rapture which precedes the tribulation which precedes the Lord's return to establish His Millennial kingdom. And the rapture is imminent. Which simply means that there are no prophetic events which must occur before the rapture can take place. So far as anyone of us knows, that rapture can occur at anytime. And then the events which must take place after the rapture can shape up with great rapidity.
Paul certainly thought that Christ could return in his lifetime. And hoped that He would. Titus 2:13 'looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;'
Paul told the Thessalonians to keep watch for Christs return. 1 Thess. 5:4 'But you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; 5] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6] so let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
But Paul never claimed to know when Jesus would return. 1 Thessalonians 5:1 'Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2] For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.' (That is, unexpectedly).
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:15 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.'
God didn't want us to know when Jesus Christ would return. Paul could have used three pronouns in this passage.
''They'': If the Holy Spirit had directed Paul to say ''they'' it would have been evident that the Lord's return would be at some point after Paul died.
''I'': If Paul had said ''I'' it would mean that Christ would certainly return before Paul died.
''We'': ''We'' is equivalent to those of us who are still alive, and ''we'' is the only pronoun Paul could use that wouldn't restrict Jesus Christ’s return to either before or after Paul’s death.
Neither Jesus or Paul taught that the second coming was going to be during the time that their generation was alive. Paul thought that it was possible.
RESPONSE:
Thank you for your long post. However,
The plain meaning of words:
"this generation will not pass away," "some of those standing here," "Whenthey shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come," and (Jesus to the high priest"From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."
make it abundantly clear that Jesus claimed that he would return during his generation. Or so the synoptic gospel writers would have us believe. If so, Jesus was wrong.
What would you guys believe if you were stood right there listening to Jesus say "This generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened," i know what i would be believing especially when he's speaking directly to them saying such stuff as "If anyone tells you","Now learn this lesson", So when you see standing in the holy place", i certainly wouldn't be thinking this is not for our generation , but for them fundamentalists in the 21st century.
To the third or forth generation, as they would still be alive. For the sins of the father fall not on the children.
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