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Old 11-16-2010, 11:08 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What i am saying Thrill is we are bankrupt and void of anything within ourselves(the old man) to come anywhere near what God requires of us whether that be by the law or by the teachings of Jesus and this includes all the IFS you refer to, and only when we come into the understanding of this, will we be able to live our lives by His righteousness.So what i am saying in a nutshell is give up and surrender, it's humbling but also liberating at the same time, you will also become a far more gracious,loving,merciful and forgiving person to believer and unbeliever too, in the knowledge that he freely bailed you out of bankruptcy.
pcamps, please be more specific. I apologize, but much of what you're saying is cryptic to me.

1. what exactly is it that God requires of us? Please be detailed.

2. what do you mean by "we live our lives by His righteousness"? Do you mean the act of us living righteously is a spontaneous event, meaning it takes no effort on our part because the Holy Spirit is moving us away from sin and squashing any carnal desires that arise within us, so that living righteously should be requiring no effort on our part? Or do you mean that even if we sin, and sin often, that His righteousness covers us so completely that we have no need to be concerned about sin & its consequences because of the fact the righteousness of Jesus is shielding us from judgement that we deserve for these sins---that same judgement which God will surely & swiftly inflict on the wicked who die without Jesus' salvation?

3. give up and surrender to what? Does that mean "Thrill, stop trying to live such a perfect life because you cannot possibly do it. No one, saved or unsaved, has the power within themselves to do that." If that is what you are saying, this might possibly be alluding to your opening statement about us being bankrupt of any good within ourselves and not at all capable in the least of living up to what God asks of us, which is to live perfect lives. Or does it mean, "Thrill, surrender to letting the Holy Spirit work through you and the sinful desire within you will dissipate on its own? If the first, I heartily disagree with your premise, pcamps, I'm sorry. If the second, I'm not sure the old man dissipates so readily.
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:15 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I have less respect for the hateful threatening God you believe is going to torture His creations forever if they don't accept His offer, Twin . . . than I do for the Godfather (who doesn't pretend to be good and loving) who makes the same kind of offers.
I'm not a believer in ET anymore (at least I hope I'm not) but even so, I still shudder when I hear people passing judgement on God in this fashion i.e. "I have no respect for a God---a God--- that would cruelly torture people like that."

It's not our party, it's God's. he can do what He wants with us. We have no say over it, but we can be assured that whatever He does with us ---ET, annihilation, or UR----it will be totally just and totally deserving.
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:25 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I'm not a believer in ET anymore (at least I hope I'm not) but even so, I still shudder when I hear people passing judgement on God in this fashion i.e. "I have no respect for a God---a God--- that would cruelly torture people like that."
I shudder when I hear people who fail to see the comparison and do not have the confidence in their ability to determine if they are equally evil or not.
Quote:
It's not our party, it's God's. he can do what He wants with us. We have no say over it, but we can be assured that whatever He does with us ---ET, annihilation, or UR----it will be totally just and totally deserving.
As His children we are to mature sufficiently to make independent judgments of Good and Evil and justice. When we KNOW Him as the God of love that He is . . . it is easy to do so with confidence.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:17 AM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I shudder when I hear people who fail to see the comparison and do not have the confidence in their ability to determine if they are equally evil or not.As His children we are to mature sufficiently to make independent judgments of Good and Evil and justice. When we KNOW Him as the God of love that He is . . . it is easy to do so with confidence.
1. the comparison of what? ET vs. UR? Some other comparison? Sorry to be so dense.

2. "if they are equally evil or not". I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry again. "Equally" implies a comparison of evils between....?

3. He is also a God of justice and He promises in hundreds of places in the Scriptures to deliver that justice swiftly and horribly on the unrighteous, or do you deny this side of God?
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,953 posts, read 47,272,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
No, He was giving the man a stern warning to stop living a lifestyle of sin---He didn't say, "Don't sin", He basically was sayinyg, "Don't fall into a pattern of sinful lifestyle or your life is going to become a living hell."

In short, Jesus expects us to be as nearly perfect as we are humanly capable of with the utmost effort on our part and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I'm rambling, but I think I've gotten my point across, albeit not too gracefully.
No, you are not rambling. I agree 100%, and that is what I was trying to explain to Logoman on the other thread about sin. Believers do sin, but there is a difference between slipping (and repenting) and living in a lifestyle of willful and habitual sin.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,953 posts, read 47,272,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
If I choose to sin, then am I really a slave to sin. Are slaves really a slave because they choose to be?
If you choose to commit a crime you go to prison. Are prisoners in prison because they choose to be?

No, they thought they'd get away with the crime.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:37 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
pcamps, please be more specific. I apologize, but much of what you're saying is cryptic to me.

1. what exactly is it that God requires of us? Please be detailed.

2. what do you mean by "we live our lives by His righteousness"? Do you mean the act of us living righteously is a spontaneous event, meaning it takes no effort on our part because the Holy Spirit is moving us away from sin and squashing any carnal desires that arise within us, so that living righteously should be requiring no effort on our part? Or do you mean that even if we sin, and sin often, that His righteousness covers us so completely that we have no need to be concerned about sin & its consequences because of the fact the righteousness of Jesus is shielding us from judgement that we deserve for these sins---that same judgement which God will surely & swiftly inflict on the wicked who die without Jesus' salvation?

3. give up and surrender to what? Does that mean "Thrill, stop trying to live such a perfect life because you cannot possibly do it. No one, saved or unsaved, has the power within themselves to do that." If that is what you are saying, this might possibly be alluding to your opening statement about us being bankrupt of any good within ourselves and not at all capable in the least of living up to what God asks of us, which is to live perfect lives. Or does it mean, "Thrill, surrender to letting the Holy Spirit work through you and the sinful desire within you will dissipate on its own? If the first, I heartily disagree with your premise, pcamps, I'm sorry. If the second, I'm not sure the old man dissipates so readily.
The scriptures tell us Thrill , that of ownselves we can do nothing , this means we possess nothing that can produce the life of God, we are bankrupt in this department.And actually i am saying stop trying to live a perfect life(see below),because we fail everytime we try, and while we are trying , we will always end up comparing ourselves with one another, and this is the point i am trying to get at, because this is where the ministry of condemnation comes from,from our own failure to produce the life of God,so we, not God,end up condemning ourselves and ultimately others, and this why we readily believe the teachings of ET and annihilation, and it's also the reason we readily condemn the sinner to those places,and will continually do so until we know that God in his great mercy wiped clean the debt we could never pay, not only will this change who we are, it will change our message from condemnation to good news towards those who are in the same boat of bankruptcy we were in.

The life of the believer is a journey Thrill, and on that journey because he is faithful to his word, he's conforming us into his own image, he will complete that which he has started,he will work in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure,because He is the author and finisher of our faith.

The bottom line Thrill at what i am trying to get at here in all that i am saying, is believing the message of either ET or annihilation passionately like many do on here, will not only minister fear and death to yourself, but all those you share with too.Out the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Last edited by pcamps; 11-17-2010 at 06:14 AM..
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:52 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Or if you care to believe in the one who says otherwise (Jesus) the mythical hell argument is man's invention.
Jesus never spoke the words "hell". He spoke on Gehenna. Gehenna is symbolic for the consuming fire of God's judgments, similar to the fire that burns up the straw and wood while purifying the gold and silver.

Quote:
That is why God pleads for people to repent ... sinners who don't repent die. (and yes that's eternally)
This makes no sense. God pleads for people to repent, then turns around and throws them into a torture chamber forever?

Quote:
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

Hebrews 10:38
And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.â€
None of these verses are talking about any alleged eternal torment. They are talking about death which means not alive.

Eternal death sounds like annihilation to me - do you believe in annihilation now? (rhetorical question).

Say what you mean. Death is death - not alive, not conscious, non-existence. Eternal torment is being burned alive forever. The opposite of death.


Furthermore Jesus has defeated death for all so all will be made alive (all are made alive in Christ; 1 Cor 15).

So again I ask - why do you not rejoice over God's just judgments?
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:02 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I'm not a believer in ET anymore (at least I hope I'm not) but even so, I still shudder when I hear people passing judgement on God in this fashion i.e. "I have no respect for a God---a God--- that would cruelly torture people like that."

It's not our party, it's God's. he can do what He wants with us. We have no say over it, but we can be assured that whatever He does with us ---ET, annihilation, or UR----it will be totally just and totally deserving.
Thrillobyte,

It is true that God can do whatever He wants with us.

But a god who creates someone for the soul purpose of being tortured forever - would you honestly say that that god is a just and loving god? You are assured that would be totally just and deserving?

What about a god who created a hell knowing full well most of his creation would end up there, yet still went ahead and created it anyway - is this god a loving god?

We are told not to call good evil and evil good. We do have a basic understanding of right and wrong - none of us would ever purposely cause a condition where another being would be tortured FOREVER, why do you think a loving god would do such a thing?

If you are trying to make the case that God is not loving, then you might have a point. I believe God is all-loving though.

So having said that I can respect and understand why someone might believe in annihilation. However, belief in eternal torment is sick and disgusting, and should be rejected as soon as you are aware of other possibilities (UR or CI for example). I say this admitting I believed in eternal torment for 30 years myself. I'm ashamed I believed it that long and didn't do more to find out the truth.
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:10 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Unless I am greatly misunderstanding these questions, it appears to me that lego and pcamps are asking if I truly expect to live up to the righteousness that Jesus seemed to demand of me.

I think we get onto a slippery slope when we ask this kind of a question because the natural tendency is to think that we cannot possibly exceed the righteousness of the scribes & Pharisees so why try. I don't think Jesus is asking us to exceed their righteousness just to make the point that we cannot possibly do it. That would be much like what Paul was saying about keeping the Law---that the Law was designed to show us that we cannot possibly keep it to the letter. That is true---we cannot keep it to the letter. But the purpose of the Law was to demonstrate just how badly we needed a Saviour to take the penalty for sin we would inevitably commit by not keeping it.

I think many Christians---and I'm not applying this to lego or pcamps-----get the idea that just because they think they cannot possibly be totally obedient it then gives them license to just sin without really trying not to ("Oh, there's no possible way for me to keep the Ten Commandments so why bother to try---Jesus doesn't expect me to anyway---He only said don't sin because He knew we were going to sin and His saying that was to demonstrate how badly we need His forgiveness") I truly believe many Christians use this as a copout to justify their sinful lifestyle.

But when Jesus told Mary, "Go and sin no more" and when He said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect" He wasn't just talking to hear Himself talk. He truly expected us to not go out and sin like the scribes and Pharisees and that literally if our righteousness did not exceed their level then we were in danger of hellfire just as they were.

I am reminded of John 5:14 where Jesus warned the invalid who had been healed, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a greater evil befall you." Jesus wasn't fooling around---he wasn't telling he man, "Look, I know you can't live a perfect life so don't try".

No, He was giving the man a stern warning to stop living a lifestyle of sin---He didn't say, "Don't sin", He basically was sayinyg, "Don't fall into a pattern of sinful lifestyle or your life is going to become a living hell."

In short, Jesus expects us to be as nearly perfect as we are humanly capable of with the utmost effort on our part and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I'm rambling, but I think I've gotten my point across, albeit not too gracefully.
I agree with much of what you are saying here, which is why I brought up 1 John 3:15 in relation to your understanding of "eternal life".

If you think loss of eternal life = annihilation (or eternal torment for others), then you had better be living perfectly sin-free right now, because that is 1 John 3 is saying.

However my point was that "eternal life" AKA eonian life is not the be-all and end-all of salvation. It simply means to know God.

I brought this up in response to your post #92 about all the verses where Jesus says "if you do this you will have eternal life". Jesus is not talking about living immortally. He is talking about knowing God.

eonian life = knowing God, during the eons

Many people will not know God for the eons, so they will not have eonian life (what you call eternal life). It does not mean they won't be saved in the end though. In the end every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

I hope you understand what I'm saying...
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