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Old 11-15-2010, 12:56 PM
 
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Those who commit sin are of their father, the devil; as it is written, they are the children of the devil. Therefore, if they die in their sins, then they will inherit their father's final destination, the lake of fire. What's more, the lake of fire is indeed eternal, and those who are cast into it will be tormented for ever and ever; there's no annihilation, but rather eternal torment as the ages roll on.

Revelation 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As you can see, the lake of fire is a place of torment where the inhabitants are tormented forever and ever. It's really grasping for straws to say that the devil's children get annihilated while their father, the devil, is tormented forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
As you can see from that word damnation, it is judgement as spelled out in numerous other verses. Only 3 times in the KJV is it translated damnation. The other 2 verses are:

Mat 23:33
[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

As you can see, the judgement is what is eternal, not the damnation. It would imply that torment is the logical choice, but really it isn't. The judgement is eternal, which is death. There is no, and can be no, coming back from it. It is why it is called judgment. It is the sentence. It is called also the "second death". Logically, it would be the death of the soul, not the body. Like Jesus said:


Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear HIM which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Hense, hell is a place of destroying. apollymi

What is hell then? A place of destruction....
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:41 PM
 
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Default Eternal or Not?

"For ever" is a mistranslation in the King James Bible. In the OT, it comes from the Hebrew word "olam," and in the NT from the Greek word "aion." The correct translation is an age or a period of time as seen in Young's Literal translation:

Revelation 20:10 – and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and nigh – to the ages of the ages (YLT)

Many scholars agree with this translation as seen in these quotes:

“Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word ‘eternity.’ We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal,’ which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end.” – G. Campbell Morgan, God’s Methods With Men, pp. 185-186

“Since, as we have seen, the noun aion refers to a period of time, it appears very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term.” – G.T. Stevenson, Time and Eternity, p. 63

For more on this, see my article on "for ever" here: For Ever God Bless
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:44 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Those who commit sin are of their father, the devil; as it is written, they are the children of the devil. Therefore, if they die in their sins, then they will inherit their father's final destination, the lake of fire. What's more, the lake of fire is indeed eternal, and those who are cast into it will be tormented for ever and ever; there's no annihilation, but rather eternal torment as the ages roll on.

Revelation 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As you can see, the lake of fire is a place of torment where the inhabitants are tormented forever and ever. It's really grasping for straws to say that the devil's children get annihilated while their father, the devil, is tormented forever.
I would have to say it is grasping to say all those who ARE of the devil are tormented just because the devil is. You would have to prove, using the Word, that this is so. Otherwise, the LOF would not be called the second death. Then, really, it wouldn't be death now would it? It would be eternal life, without the One who actually gives life.

See UR and ET follow the same basic premise, but the outcome is different. They believe a man's soul is eternal, and this is where we differ. Immortality is ONLY of and through God, because ONLY God is immortal. He is not going to give life to those who suffer endlessly. It is a fallacy. They would not have access to the Tree of Life, therefore they would die, like Adam.
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Jesus said unto her:

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:29 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,551,735 times
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Annihilation:

Quote:
though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever.
.

Quote:
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases (dead bodies) of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (dead bodies burning for all eternity--undying worms crawling through the charred remains)
Quote:
The soul who sins shall die
Quote:
rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Quote:
“…as the tongue of fire devours the stubble,
and as dry grass sinks down in the flame,
so their root will become rotten,
and their blossom go up like dust,
for they have rejected the instruction of the Lord of hosts…”
Quote:
the wicked will perish
Quote:
They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there
There are many more. Shall I quote them?
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Old 11-16-2010, 05:20 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,209 posts, read 19,986,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Annihilation:
Well Thrill if these verses mean what you are saying there is literally no hope for any of us, and the victor is sin and death, because if you knew yourself those verses are speaking about each one of us,if you don't believe me go to the temple and look down on the sinner and say "Thank God i'm not like this publican", if you can accept it you are that publican.
.
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Old 11-16-2010, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,630,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Those who commit sin are of their father, the devil; as it is written, they are the children of the devil. Therefore, if they die in their sins, then they will inherit their father's final destination, the lake of fire. What's more, the lake of fire is indeed eternal, and those who are cast into it will be tormented for ever and ever; there's no annihilation, but rather eternal torment as the ages roll on.

Revelation 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As you can see, the lake of fire is a place of torment where the inhabitants are tormented forever and ever. It's really grasping for straws to say that the devil's children get annihilated while their father, the devil, is tormented forever.
What your preaching (Eternal Torment) would mean the following also:

1.) Sin never gets destroyed since sinners will remain in torment forever. (The scriptures preach the destruction of sin by making sin to no longer exist)

2.) Sin will get a dominion where it shall keep its subjects under its power for the rest of eternity.

3.) Sinners will inherit immortality (no other way to burned in fire and last forever without being immortal).

4.) Sinners will receive a form of life that last the rest of eternity. (scriptures teach that the wages of sin is death)

5.) Since sin would remain because sinners will remain - it would mean that Jesus failed to destroy all the works of the devil which is sin.

6.) Since would get a victory because sin still exist in the Eternal Torment doctrine (it is never eradicated since sinners will continue to exist).

7.) It would be contradictory to the parables and teachings of Christ and represent a misunderstanding of the Spirit of God.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:11 AM
 
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The spirit is immortal, for sinners and righteous ones alike. The spirit will burn forever, does not mean the spirit is dead. It just means a perpetual suffering for that spirit.


Take note that the first death is our baptism in Christ, after which we put on the holy spirit. The second death, will therefore have no effect on us i=once we have passed through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That is, even if we die, we will always reincarnate on earth.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
The spirit is immortal, for sinners and righteous ones alike.
Show me in the Word proving this. ONLY God is immortal. We are NOT gods.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:45 AM
 
5,417 posts, read 4,663,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I would have to say it is grasping to say all those who ARE of the devil are tormented just because the devil is. You would have to prove, using the Word, that this is so. Otherwise, the LOF would not be called the second death. Then, really, it wouldn't be death now would it? It would be eternal life, without the One who actually gives life.
Just as the children of God inherit their Father's eternal life, so will the children of the devil inherit their father's eternal death. Is the devil's death annihilation? No, he will be tormented day and night forever and ever, and so will the devil's children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
See UR and ET follow the same basic premise, but the outcome is different. They believe a man's soul is eternal, and this is where we differ. Immortality is ONLY of and through God, because ONLY God is immortal. He is not going to give life to those who suffer endlessly. It is a fallacy. They would not have access to the Tree of Life, therefore they would die, like Adam.
Jesus made it clear that the worm [the soul] never dies.

Mark 9
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
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