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Only if you think the testing and "refinement" of your "hay, stubble, etc." by God's chastising fire will be a pleasant experience depending on what you "sowed."
Agreed. But if our salvation depends on us monitoring ourself to not screw-up, we are all doomed.
Thankfully salvation is a complete work of God - there is nothing we can do to save ourselves and there is nothing we can do to screw it up. Anyone agree with me on this?
Absolutely! -- A deeper truth not understood by many who say things like, "Well, then everyone will be saved" OR "Oh, so a believer can do anything they want and still go to heaven."
If you try to instert those words into my mouth one more time, this conversation is over.
I NEVER SAID I AM COMPLETELY WITHOUT SIN. Several times I have tried to correct your attempts to spin it that way, but you keep coming back trying to make is look like I have said that I never sin.
Why do you do that?
I said this is my take on the verse, and if you don't agree with it, then don't. There is no need to argue for the sake of arguing expecially when you can't do it without accusing me of creating loopholes etc silly stuff. What is it with the UR folk obsession with taking stabs at people? You think you look better if you can make others look worse? It doesn't work that way. You don't get to rate my faith. Only God can do that.
I'm not trying to insert words in your mouth or "spin anything" Finn. I don't know why you always seem to think that. I'm not taking stabs. I'm not trying to do any of the the above of what you accuse me Finn... you have mistaken my intent.
I'm trying to understand how a hell believer can look at a verse like 1 John 3:15 and not realize what the implications are for themselves according to their own doctrine. I'm trying to maybe make you realize that you are not understanding what 1 John 3:15 is saying. Whether you realize it or not you have invented your own loophole.
You get very defensive Finn when people disagree with you. I'm sorry for that.
The other reason I am bringing this all up is to show how the English translated words "eternal life" are deeply misunderstood. As I said in the other post, the proper translation is "eonian life" and it simply means to know God (John 17:3). If you read all of 1 John 3, the focus is all about knowing God and those who love know God. That is what God is, and that is what God commands us to do: Love. If you don't love you don't know God. That is all it is saying. That is what "eonian life" is all about. So then it makes very good sense that if one hates they don't know God - because God is all about love.
That is the whole purpose for everything. For us to learn to love.
Only if you think the testing and "refinement" of your "hay, stubble, etc." by God's chastising fire will be a pleasant experience depending on what you "sowed."
Well, it simply says that a murderer has no eternal life. Period.
And for those who can follow the scriptures know 1 John 3:15 that those who reject God...God rejects them. (Matthew 25)
But you are missing the whole picture. God does not cast off forever. God does not reject forever. He has bound all to disobedience so He can have mercy on all. In fact the only way someone can "not reject" God is by God drawing them to Him - so then we must acknowledge it is all up to God.
Salvation is a complete work of God twin.spin - even down to Him changing our heart so we stop rejecting Him and start following Him. Agree?
I'm not trying to insert words in your mouth or "spin anything" Finn. I don't know why you always seem to think that. I'm not taking stabs. I'm not trying to do any of the the above of what you accuse me Finn... you have mistaken my intent.
No, you keep coming back with the same comment "so you are saying you never sin", even after I had specifically said the exact opposite. I guess you were hoping for someone to say that they never sin, and you were disappointed when no one said it. Telling someone they are creating loopholes is taking stabs at them. There is no need for it. I got tired of these games, and I find them dishonest, and I will call them every time I see them until they stop. If it makes you feel better, you are not the worst offender around here.
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I'm trying to understand how a hell believer can look at a verse like 1 John 3:15 and not realize what the implications are for themselves according to their own doctrine. I'm trying to maybe make you realize that you are not understanding what 1 John 3:15 is saying.
I already explained to you what the chapter means, and if you don't agree, then don't agree.
What you didin't realize was the fact that the verse creates a dilemma for you, not me. Where does the murderer go since he has been denied eternal life?
No, you keep coming back with the same comment "so you are saying you never sin", even after I had specifically said the exact opposite. I guess you were hoping for someone to say that they never sin, and you were disappointed when no one said it. Telling someone they are creating loopholes is taking stabs at them. There is no need for it. I got tired of these games, and I find them dishonest, and I will call them every time I see them until they stop. If it makes you feel better, you are not the worst offender around here.
That is how you see it - but that was not the intent.
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I already explained to you what the chapter means, and if you don't agree, then don't agree.
What you didin't realize was the fact that the verse creates a dilemma for you, not me. Where does the murderer go since he has been denied eternal life?
Since you asked, I will explain.
First it is eonian life, not eternal life. Try to remember this. It can be thought of as life relating to or lasting through eons, and as I said it is specifically related to knowing God, because that is what John 17:3 (and all of 1 John 3) confirms for us.
There are two resurrections. Some are resurrected to eonian life. They are the chosen elect - the children of God - the firstborn - the firstfruits. They inherit eonian life and live for the eons reigining with Christ. This may be a very long period of time, perhaps 1000 years - I'm not sure personally. This may also include part of the elect's life now - again I'm not 100% sure - still studying it. In any case this is the group of people who are to be Kings, judges, priests, and ministers.
The rest are the unrepentant sinners - non-elect - murderers, liars, etc. Those who have not as yet been converted by God in this life. They will not be resurrected until the second resurrection - the resurrection to judgment. This is symbolized by the lake of fire and will be executed by the elect - the elect will judge and minister to the non-elect in order to instrument their conversion. This is their judgment. The purpose of this judgment is that they will learn righteousness. This is all done through Christ.
All are made alive in Christ, but each in their own order. First the firstfruits (elect), then the rest. Ultimately God will be all in all because all will have been restored and reconciled back to Him.
So in short - the murderer is dead in his grave until he is resurrected to judgment.
Beyond the eons all will live one because all will have immortality at that point.
First it is eonian life, not eternal life. Try to remember this. It can be thought of as life relating to or lasting through eons, and as I said it is specifically related to knowing God, because that is what John 17:3 (and all of 1 John 3) confirms for us.
Your interpreption has been proven false many times, not even if it was true, it would still create a big problem. Lets assume a believer is granter a 1000 year 'eonian' life, and the murderer is not. Wouldn't you rather live for the 1000 'eonian' life than not?
Angels are immortal, and we will be immortal too. We will be like the angels.
PS. You are not 100% sure, because it is not in the Bible.
Your interpreption has been proven false many times, not even if it was true, it would still create a big problem. Lets assume a believer is granter a 1000 year 'eonian' life, and the murderer is not. Wouldn't you rather live for the 1000 'eonian' life than not?
"Proven false many times?" All such "proofs" are based on the mistaken interpretation of the words "eternal" and "eternal life". All such "proofs" ignore the plain statements that God will have all men to be saved, and that God is reconciling all things and that God sent Christ to save all men.
I'm not sure why what you say is a "big problem". Of course one would rather live for the 1000 year (or however long) eonian life. This is another incentive to know Christ now. How is this a "big problem" for UR?
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PS. You are not 100% sure, because it is not in the Bible.
I am not 100% sure on the timing of everything because I am honest enough to admit I don't know everything. Within UR camps there are debates about eschatology - exactly how everything will play out. However what I am 100% sure on is that the words for "eternal" & "eternal life" have been severely misunderstood (as I explained) and God will indeed have all men to be saved - because that is what scripture plainly says.
However since you are so sure God lets people be tormented for eternity because God's ways are higher than our ways, I will ask you the same thing I asked twin.spin.
Since God's ways are true and just, and we are to rejoice in all of God's ways, why are you not rejoicing and praising God about all the people who are burning in hell right now (as you believe)?
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