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I am sorry about your mother, Mr5150. For the record, I am still quite young so I haven't lost anyone that close yet, and I am not Christian. Here's what I think.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
As to what I think? God is sovereign. And I submit to His will. I do not accept the UR POV, but I wanted to understand the UR POV in matters such as this. I thank you for your input.
The problem with the 'God is sovereign' argument is that it can be used to prove any theology imaginable.
Try this for instance: Maybe God's will is to trick everyone into worshiping Jesus because he feels like that, while real savior is Hank and he will be born in 2063 . This means that we are all going to hell and there is nothing anyone can do because Hank isn't born yet. Sounds wicked? Who are you to question sovereign God!?
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I am big on personal responsibility. My mother made choices with eyes wide open. She had 81 years to make the eternal choice, but said, no thanks. She actually wanted nothing to do with God to put it polietly.
There is an interesting conundrum about personal responsibility that I asked a few times but never heard any real answer:
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Originally Posted by myself
1. people are entirely responsible for going to Hell themselves.
2. therefore Hell is just punishment, because it's entirely people's fault
3. it seems possible for one man's will to sway anthers. Otherwise there would be no point in debating non-believers
Either 2 or 3 are wrong because they contradict. So either hell isn't just or it is completely pointless to proselytize.
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I am sad, but the Bible promises that God will wipe away every tear and there will be no sadness in Heaven or on the New Earth. God puts out the invite, but not everyone accepts it. Some things I will never understand. With that said I have peace. The peace that passes understanding.
The peace isn't that hard thing to gain. Buddhists have plenty of peace too, I imagine. I am more interested in truth.
Python, what we know about God is through His written word and His Spirit as He reveals to us.
As for personal responsibility*, we know that (a) man is corrupt, and cannot follow God, and (b) God of course knows this, and considers that we are dust. We can do nothing without Him. He knows what we are, understands our failures, and expects nothing more than what He put in us to begin with.
*Response - our part, Ability - God's part
As for a trick, or alternate salvation other than Himself - no can do, because something else we know is that the Holy One will not lie, and He declares again and again that there is no other savior but Him.
As for personal responsibility*, we know that (a) man is corrupt, and cannot follow God, and (b) God of course knows this, and considers that we are dust. We can do nothing without Him. He knows what we are, understands our failures, and expects nothing more than what He put in us to begin with.
That doesn't even try to answer my question.
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As for a trick, or alternate salvation other than Himself - no can do, because something else we know is that the Holy One will not lie, and He declares again and again that there is no other savior but Him.
How do we know he won't lie? He is God and he supposedly can do everything he wants. And he seems to allow many lies to flourish. For example, if Christianity is true then it follows that Islam is a lie. Yet, God allows people to be born into that system and be lied to, although he could easily stop it. That's not much different from outright lying to people.
I explained why man is not capable of ultimately being responsible for his destiny.
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Originally Posted by python87
How do we know he won't lie? He is God and he supposedly can do everything he wants. And he seems to allow many lies to flourish. For example, if Christianity is true then it follows that Islam is a lie. Yet, God allows people to be born into that system and be lied to, although he could easily stop it. That's not much different from outright lying to people.
I addressed the issue of God being true and every man a liar, but to further the point:
The truths of Christianity are as deep as the ocean, but you must consider that man's fall in the beginning was God's will, his condition is God's will, and his redemption is God's will. It's not on your schedule or mine, nor is the execution of that plan up to you or me.
My mother died without accepting Jesus...So what's the fate of people like her?
Mr5150-
Given June's non-religious perspective as a nonbeliever, she is hardly qualiied to address your querie regarding what your mother's fate would be.
She can, however, address the fact that she sends you her heartfelt condolences across the vast miles of cyberspace, and is so very sorry for your loss...
Orthodox theology-Eternal Seperation from God-not a good thing, but not bothered if I am wrong.
My mother was well aware of the Eternal Hell theology, yet still said "no thanks".
Dear Mr5151,
Could it be your mother just could not square a loving God with a God who would eternally torture people in hell?
Can you really blame her for having nothing to do with such a God?
Why would God eternally torture her for not believing in such a being? I would think He would applaud her for standing firm on her idea that if that is the way God is she would have nothing to do with Him.
I wouldn't doubt that the false doctrine of eternal torment has caused more people to reject the God of Christendom than anything else and become atheist or agnostic.
But to answer your question, she will receive the increddible miracle of resurrection power by God Almighty and stand not just before her Judge but her Saviour as well. She will, for the first time see that this Saviour died for all her sins. Her believing does not make that so.
She may miss out on the thousand year age and maybe the new earth age. But eventually she will enter into salvation for God has said she will be saved and you know, God can't lie . . . can He?
My mother died without accepting Jesus. As a matter of fact she didn't even like God. Was an atheist/agnostic who wanted no part of God.
So what's the fate of people like her? As in before she is reconciled to God.
How is she gonna spend the next 100 or 10,000 years?
I am soooo sorry about your mother Mr5150.
I believe as others (lego, Ilene, etc.) that your mother is sleeping. Although, this and the process can be debated among us of the UR perspective, I do think that she will come to know him.
There is FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. The greatest of these is LOVE. Some may not agree with me, but I don’t believe that we are going to have any FAITH or HOPE when we are with Christ, because then we will “see” TRUTH in front of us. FAITH will have brought us to where we had HOPED to be, which is LOVE.
I believe that God gives us HOPE and FAITH, here and “now” by the LOVE that has always been (HIMSELF from HIMSELF). And this has been painful for just about all of us in this life of “belief”.
Your mother was created by a Loving Father and she will return to LOVE. She will be face to face with LOVE. Her conversion will be WAY more quicker than ours.
And when that happens Mr5150 we will ALL hold her hand with you and Christ.
Dear Mr5151,
Could it be your mother just could not square a loving God with a God who would eternally torture people in hell?
Can you really blame her for having nothing to do with such a God?
Actually her beef was: if there is a God, why does He allow evil? She grew up in Europe during WW2 and suffered under Hitler as a Jew. And of course she figured Hitler was a Christian. So if Hitler is a Christian then christianity is evil and besides Jesus was not the Messiah, etc., etc...
Actually her beef was: if there is a God, why does He allow evil? She grew up in Europe during WW2 and suffered under Hitler as a Jew. And of course she figured Hitler was a Christian. So if Hitler is a Christian then christianity is evil and besides Jesus was not the Messiah, etc., etc...
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And once again, thanks all for your kind words.
Mr5150, I was going by what you wrote to Sparrow:
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My mother was well aware of the Eternal Hell theology, yet still said "no thanks".
We were not apprised of her run-in with Hitler.
So, can you really blame her for saying "no thanks"? Do you think God will?
How could Jesus be the Messiah sent from such a diabolical God if such a God exists? Jesus was supposed to mirror the true God Who loves His enemies. Did Jesus ever act like the God of Christendom?
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