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herefornow, that was rude, crude and insensitive. Don't hurt the little ETers feelings. Funny that they malign God and Christ by teaching such blasphemous b.s. as eternal torture in fire yet they put people on ignore for being rude.
Actually, I loved that! "I hear crickets." Gotta love it. I just wish you'd change your handle to "hereforgood."
Are you surprised you are on people's ignore list? It does not surprise me. Even the post above is very rude. It is also telling that every time you insult someone, all the other URs rush in to cheer you on and give you the thumbs up sign.
It is unpleasant to read posts like the one above. Very unpleasant.
It is life with unlimited duration: eternal life. Read post #3.
Thanks Finn_Jarber, why do you suppose that aionios could not be translated eternal in this verse:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Obviously eternity is an unending state. I would argue it is not only an unending state but eternity also means a state of no beginning. Thus eternity means "no ending" AND "no beginning" So how can aionios simply be brought down to such a finite point in time (as it is in the verse I provided) if it means eternity?
Where would these verses fit within your thinkology
the smoke of their torment rises for ever and everRevelation 14:11
The devil and those decieved by him will be tormented for ever and ever Revelation 20:10
For the crowd that uses the YLT
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages;
and they have no rest day and night,
who are bowing before the beast and his image,
also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
How long is ages [plural] of ages [plural]
the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. Revelation 20:10
how long is to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]
Where would these verses fit within your thinkology
the smoke of their torment rises for ever and everRevelation 14:11
The devil and those decieved by him will be tormented for ever and ever Revelation 20:10
For the crowd that uses the YLT
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages;
and they have no rest day and night,
who are bowing before the beast and his image,
also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
How long is ages [plural] of ages [plural]
the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. Revelation 20:10
how long is to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]
Where would these verses fit within your thinkology
the smoke of their torment rises for ever and everRevelation 14:11
The devil and those decieved by him will be tormented for ever and ever Revelation 20:10
For the crowd that uses the YLT
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages;
and they have no rest day and night,
who are bowing before the beast and his image,
also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
How long is ages [plural] of ages [plural]
the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. Revelation 20:10
how long is to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]
Let me answer your questions though. The phrase "ages of ages" would denote the rest of eternity. Plus we can see that is true. For the DEVIL can only be tormented if the Devil can no longer do his works - which is sin. So this verse is proof against an eternal torment of the wicked in a firey hell since in Eternal Torment the wicked are still considered to be in REBELLION against God. To be in rebellion is to be practicing sin. Therefore, in such a doctrine the Devil would NOT be in torment but would be performing his own works of sin. The only way the Devil can be in Torment is if the devil cannot do his works.
Where would these verses fit within your thinkology
the smoke of their torment rises for ever and everRevelation 14:11
The devil and those decieved by him will be tormented for ever and ever Revelation 20:10
For the crowd that uses the YLT
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages;
and they have no rest day and night,
who are bowing before the beast and his image,
also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
How long is ages [plural] of ages [plural]
the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. Revelation 20:10
how long is to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]
Good question!! Let see if this can answer your question....
I have recently added this to my "Challenge" article. It will answer you question of...
"Where would these verses fit within your thinkology?"
Read it, and then YOU "TELL me what I am thinking".
Quote:
…………………..READER……………………..Thinking………………………….Greek Form
Mat 21:19………“age”……………………… “age, era, etc.”……………………“singular”
Mat 6:13………..“age(S)”……………….“2 or more ages”………………….“PLURAL”
Heb 1:8……“age of the age”………..“age contrasting age”………..“singular/singular”
Gal 1:5……“ageS of the ageS”…….“ageS contrasting ageS”……..“PLURAL/PLURAL”
Dan 7:18…“age of the ageS”……….“age contrasting ageS”………..“singular/PLURAL”
Eph 3:21….“age of the agesS”……..“age contrasting ageS”……….“singular/PLURAL”
Now, it would be NO surprise at ALL that YOU (or YOUR Men) do NOT like this TRANSLATION. Heck, you say we are “Preaching a doctrine of demons” because of it, but really that is okay though, you don’t have to like it. I, for one, don’t blame you, because I have believed (past tense) that same way you do, so I really REALLY do understand. (Most of US do).
Ok….YOUR TURN. Yep….Here is your chance to put us and OUR Men to shame. Your “Come Back” so to speak. You can use what ever noun you want, really….go ahead, any noun you want. I can even suggest some to you if you like. Here are a few……
Age
eon
era
tree
life
duck
time
car
pickle
FOREVER (as a NOUN)
ETERNITY
EVER
Pick one, or you can pick one that is NOT in the list if you would like. It is YOUR prerogative. Now go ahead and TRANSLATE those verses yourself, or even ask YOUR Men for help. There are a few RULES and QUESTIONS that need to be known though. The RULES are as follows……
Where the Greek shows a SINGULAR NOUN, then CONVEY this “singular” noun into YOUR translation.
Where the Greek shows a PLURAL NOUN, then CONVEY this “plural” noun into YOUR translation.
The QUESTIONS are as follows…
1. How long is an eternity? (hey…looky there….you guys ask us this one all the time)
2. How MANY eternities are there? (Prerequisite: Must KNOW answer to #1)
3. How can I convey to my Reader, that the Eternity in Question #1 is LONGER?
4. How can I convey to my Reader, that the Eternity in Question #1 is SHORTER?
Now repeat the SAME exact questions, but replace the word “Eternity” with the word “Forever”.
Now repeat the SAME exact questions, by replacing the word with the word “ever”.
You are the Translator now, ok? I will act as your scholar here. As you can see, your scholar has done most of the work here for you. I have given you the noun forms. And like you, YOUR Men think these references mean eternity also, so I put eternity into your thinking column already, to make it easier. Your assignment, after KNOWING the rules and the answers to the questions, is to now TRANSLATE the below scriptures. You just need to fill in the blanks...….Okay Go!
Make the……………………………....READER………………..…. THINK ………………by using these NOUN forms
Mat 21:19……………………………”_________ _”……………….“ETERNITY”………… ……. 1 Singular Noun
Mat 6:13……………………………..“________ __”……………….“ETERNITY”………… ………. 1 Plural Noun
Heb 1:8……………..“________and________”… ..……...“ETERNITY”………………….2 Singular Nouns
Gal 1:5………………“________and________” ………………“ETERNITY”……………… …..2 Plural Nouns
Dan 7:18……………“________and________” ……………..“ETERNITY”……………… .1st singular/2nd Plural
Now, if you did, indeed, pick either “eternity, forever, or ever” out of the list provided, then….ALAS! I am going to make another prediction here then.
The Prediction falls into either of THREE catagories…
1) You have found it pretty tough to even “CONVEY” the THOUGHT of ETERNITY to your READERS. And the reason for this is because you actually KNOW the rules NOW, and you also KNOW the answers to the questions.
2) Or ALAS!! Eureka!! You have done it. Congradulations! Now PAY ATTENTION: the only reason why you COULD do this, is because you do “NOT KNOW” the RULES and the Answers to the QUESTIONS. The fix to your problem here is to…..”Go to YOUR Men and Learn them”.
3) Or ALAS!! Eureka!! You have done it. Congradulations! Now PAY ATTENTION: the only reason why you COULD do this, is because you are NOT following what YOUR Men ALREADY KNOW.
Now I am going to SHOW you something here that you may not be realizing. Below, I am going to re-Paste something we have just seen, so the exercise will be easier. In this exercise you will need a piece of paper or just use your hand. This’ll be fun!
This paragraph you are NOW reading, scroll it to the TOP of your screen. Now, take your hand (or paper) and “just” COVER the whole noun forms column including header. Now, by reading the very next paragraph, find the answers to these questions(write answers down if you wish). Who is your scholar here? I did ‘what’ to your ‘what’ column? When were you to translated the below scriptures? Who is the Translator? You are translating to what, (hint: read column headers)? Now, how come you didn’t have to enter the words ‘eternity’ into you think column?
You are the Translator now, ok? I will act as your scholar here. As you can see, your scholar has done most of the work here for you. I have given you the noun forms. And like you, YOUR Men think these references mean eternity also, so I put eternity into your thinking column already, to make it easier. Your assignment, after KNOWING the rules and the answers to the questions, is to now TRANSLATE the below scriptures. You have to just fill in the blanks...….Okay Go!
Make the……………………………....READER………………..…. THINK ………………by using these NOUN forms
Mat 21:19……………………………”_________ _”……………….“ETERNITY”………… ……. 1 Singular Noun
Mat 6:13……………………………..“________ __”……………….“ETERNITY”………… ………. 1 Plural Noun
Heb 1:8……………..“________and________”… ..……...“ETERNITY”………………….2 Singular Nouns
Gal 1:5………………“________and________” ………………“ETERNITY”……………… …..2 Plural Nouns
Dan 7:18……………“________and________” ……………..“ETERNITY”……………… .1st singular/2nd Plural
Now, THAT my friend is pretty telling. If you wrote down your answers and read them in order, they should read something like this….
I, Joe, YOUR scholar, have “put” eternity into your thinking. So, NOW, you are “trying very hard” to translate and make the Reader (people) THINK of the eternity concept, because it was ALREADY in your thoughts to begin with.
Because, who put it there again? Yep “I” did. Yep, I TOLD you what to think. I manipulated your TRANSLATING. You are trying to CONVEY a thought that I, Joe, had planted in your head. You have to admit though, I DID tell you I was only “acting” as your translator, did I not?. And here is the real kicker people, in this whole exercise we haven’t even LOOKED at what the GREEK form tells us YET.
I will be honest here, at this point, I wouldn’t blame you for being a little upset with me here, because you may be thinking that I am being arrogant, or rude, or condescending. I kind of purposely did this to show you something.
If you don’t like what I did above, look at the chart again, and then get RID of what “I” put into your thinking column then, and “put” into there, what you think then. Fact is, with your beliefs, you are most likely to put the SAME thing BACK in there, right? I don’t blame you for being upset. I don’t like it when someont TELLS me what I am thinking either.
One of you, have probably caught a mistake that I had made earlier, right? You probably said something like… “No Joe, you are wrong, you stated that you would be “acting” as our Scholar, NOT our Translator”. Well, before I fix it, go back and read the exercises again, and I ask yourself this, “Who is REALLY translating here?” You or YOUR Scholar?
If you haven’t already, remove your hand (or paper), NOW look at what you and YOUR Men STILL see. Now ask yourself something very serious here. Are all the words “ETERNITY” or “FOREVER” or “EVER” (in YOUR thinking column) in the PLURAL form. Because the Greek blatantly TELLS you that at least SOME of them should be. Now thus far I have shown you two things…
YOUR Scholars TELL YOU (such and such)
The Greek texts TELL YOU (such and such)
Now ask yourself something here. How are you REALLY translating here? Are you TRANSLATING by what YOUR Scholars are TELLING YOU or by what the Greek texts are TELLING YOU.
After all that has been covered so far and after all that I have written. I have a really simple question for you and YOUR Men.
· If the best WORD that you can come up with to describe what you are THINKING is the word “eternity”, why, pray tell, are you NOT using that SAME word to CONVEY to others what you are THINKING?????? (which is ‘eternity’) I would REALLY like an answer to that.
Still haven't seen that ONE Scholar though. We, most likely, never will, because the challenge has now brought THEIR Scholars over to OUR Side. And they dont want to "quote" anyone from OUR side, now do they?
Telling....very telling indeed.
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