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Is there a need for insults? What is it with universalists and never ending insults?
The problem seems MOSTLY to be in the beholder, Finn . . . there are too many instances of you taking exception to and insult from ANY and ALL disagreements and criticisms of YOUR BELIEFS . . . not YOU. True we ALL occasionally get frustrated with the non-thinking rote proclamations of ancient ignorance that characterizes the mainstream corruption of Jesus' Good News message and example . . . as in Iron's obvious frustration here. But just as the boy calling wolf lost credibility . . . your complaints about insults fall on deaf ears.
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The chapter talks about believers and their works, and a believer without works is saved. It is written with such clarity that there is no room for misunderstanding it. The wicked servant was not a believer.
This exclusivist nonsense injected into the Good News by agenda-driven men is a patently false and evil doctrine as it divides us and causes dissensions using fear . . . thus corrupting the "love of God and each other" . . . a satanic goal.
Finn; It doesn't say every believer ,it says every man. will be saved by fire. Again fire is a metaphor and is not literal. The lake of fire is a metaphor and not literal. and you are right, all timid, liars, unbelievers, idoltors, and sexually immoral will be in the Lake of Fire. It is there that all these things will be "burned" out of them by God's judgements.
Where does it say 'every man'. It says anyone who builds on foundation of God.
If you read the chapter you will see it talks about believers only. The chapter talks about church, and people who build on foundation of God. Unbelievers do not build on foundation of God. This fire is not the 'lake of fire' which the Revelation talks about. This fire is there to test the works of believers.
Finn; It doesn't say every believer ,it says every man. will be saved by fire. Again fire is a metaphor and is not literal. The lake of fire is a metaphor and not literal. and you are right, all timid, liars, unbelievers, idoltors, and sexually immoral will be in the Lake of Fire. It is there that all these things will be "burned" out of them by God's judgements.
One more thought why do you think it says fire and sulfer(brimstone)? Sulfer doesn't make fire hotter or more painful, but sulfer is a purifing agent and is used to purify. This too is a metaphor that the fire will burn out the inpurities and the sulfer will purify. It is saying God's judgement will save all his children, which is all mankind but it will be a long and painful journey.
Great post.
And are we not ALL in the midst of this even now...?
I find it a little funny at times, that folks think that all of this is for THEIR SOLE BENEFIT. "Your choice, heaven or hell..." When that choice isn't even there in the first place. No. You are in the midst of something right along with EVERYONE ELSE. It's all playing out just as it should.
His PLAN for HIS creation.
His plan is being revealed slowly but surely, step by step.
We were subjected to futility in HOPE...
God is using His creation to TEACH His creation.
It's genius!
We are ALL in this thing together.
Whether a person sees it yet or not.
WE are all in this together. ALL of creation.
Love your neighbor as yourself...
The judgements are teaching us as a whole and as individuals.
The POWER of love. And the destructive nature of NON-love.
Who is your neighbor? ALL OF CREATION! (Yes, ALL of it... )
Look all around you. Look all around...
Think about the human brain. DNA. Look at this finely tuned universe, do you think that who created all of this, all of this DETAIL and ridiculous amount of variety and order, that He wouldn't have a most righteous and PERFECT plan?!
Love your neighbor as yourself.
We are learning this, and we are going to go through pain to learn it.
Non-love affects each and everyone of us.
But so does LOVE.
But in the end, we will ALL be the better for learning the difference.
It is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT thing that God needs for us to learn.
Why is that? Ponder the answer.
What is the "hope" of this "subjected futility"?
Think about it...
The problem seems MOSTLY to be in the beholder, Finn . . . there are too many instances of you taking exception to and insult from ANY and ALL disagreements and criticisms of YOUR BELIEFS . . . not YOU.
I was talking about this comment "You are simply confused and deceived by your hope and misplaced faith".
It is an insult, pure and simple, and I will continue to point them out whether you like it or not.
I happen to find it amazingly hypocritical that the very same people who pound their chest and claim to love their neighbor, are the very same people who can't stop disrespecting their fellow men.
I was talking about this comment "You are simply confused and deceived by your hope and misplaced faith".
It is an insult, pure and simple, and I will continue to point them out whether you like it or not.
I acknowledged Iron's frustration in his post . . . but I was trying to make a more general point about your lack of discrimination between criticisms of your beliefs and criticisms of you. It seems to have failed to penetrate. Continue to cry wolf, if you must.
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I happen to find it amazingly hypocritical that the very same people who pound their chest and claim to love their neighbor, are the very same people who can't stop disrespecting their fellow men.
They are disrespecting your beliefs in ancient ignorance, Finn . . . but that seems to be the same as disrespecting you in your eyes. Pity.
They are disrespecting your beliefs in ancient ignorance, Finn . . . but that seems to be the same as disrespecting you in your eyes. Pity.
Twist, spin and justify it any way you want, but if someone calls you confused and deceived, and that your faith is misplaced, then they are being disrespectful. It says a lot that you try to justify it.
I get it from you guys every day, and I will point it out so that maybe some day you will see your error.
Twist, spin and justify it any way you want, but if someone calls you confused and deceived, and that your faith is misplaced, then they are being disrespectful. It says a lot that you try to justify it.
I get it from you guys every day, and I will point it out so that maybe some day you will see your error.
So Finn what is your honest view on Universal Reconciliation and those who believe in it ?.
sciotamiks: I arrive at that conclution by thing I read in the Bible. John the Baptist said that he baptized with water but one will come which will baptized you with fire, baptizim is ritual cleansing.
The Bible also says Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).
Also it says For our God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
also
"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).
The scriptures you have supplied deal with those "in covenant."
I was talking about those that are not saved....second death-ers.
Not in the New Jerusalem, no salvation.
Sciotamicks: When you talk about the saved and unsaved I think you are making a common mistake. You are not saved, you are in the process of being saved as all of us are. We all will be judged and chastised, each in his own time.
Salvation is an on going process. God works in increments. Check the verses that deal with salvation in the original and you will notice that they say : shall be saved, now saving, to be saved, indicating it is still going on for all of us.
One more thing a little off the subject but related. I was asked if Jesus doesn't save us from Hell what does he save us from? The answer of course is sin and death. For without salvation and resurrection we would be in sin and dead for eternity.
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