Romans 7...**WILLFULL SIN**...It makes perfect sense!!! (crucified, doctrine, churches)

[Verna Perry]

There are 2 questions that must be answered about Paul in Romans, Chapter 7.


1. Was Paul speaking of sins of ignorance or willfull sin?

2. Was Paul talking about his experience before his conversion or after?

*Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal,*sold under sin*.


We really have to look no further than that statement by Paul.

If that verse and the following verses (14 - to the end) refers to Paul sinning willfully after his conversion then that would mean that from the time of his conversion, through the missionary journeys and up to and including writing this Epistle to the Romans - Paul was a slave of sin.

It would mean that Jesus sent a slave of sin to be an apostle to His churches...("I am carnal - sold under sin.")

SOLD UNDER SIN MEANS: As a slave. The preposition "upo" pronounced "hoop-o" means under, with the accusitive, implies direction; so as to be under the power of.

In Romans 6 Paul states:

Romans 6:6 "...knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Romans 6:7 "For he that is dead is FREED FROM SIN."

If Paul was speaking of willfull sin after his conversion in Romans 7 and he was a slave to sin - it would mean that his old man was NOT crucified with Christ and that Paul was NOT freed from sin when he wrote Romans 7.

In Romans 6 Paul states:

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yeild yourselves to obey, HIS SERVANTS YE ARE TO WHOM YE OBEY: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness."

Again, if Paul was speaking of willfull sin after conversion in Romans 7, it would mean that Paul was deliberately choosing to obey sin unto death.

In Romans 6 Paul states:

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

How could it be possible that the Roman Christians to who he was writing were made free from sin but Paul himself had not been freed? IMPOSSIBLE!


WAS PAUL SPEAKING OF WILLFULL SIN IN ROMANS 7? YES!

1. Paul knew the commandments and said they were just, holy and good: (Therefore it could not be ignorance of the law.)

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I had not known sin but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good.

2. He knew what he was doing was sin: (Therefore it could not be unintentional sin.)

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

3. Paul wanted to stop but could not: (Therefore he was not ignorant of his actions.)

4. He knew he was lost if he could not stop doing evil (The wages of sin is death), and he was helpless before the power of sin which dwelt in him. (Therefore he was not ignorant of the consequesces of willfull sin.)

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

IT WAS A NARRATIVE!

If we think of verses 7:14 through 7:24 where Paul changes from speaking in a past tense to a present tense (I am carnal - sold under sin) as a narrative describing himself as he was before his conversion IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE! Imagine Paul looking at a motion picture of his life before he was born of God and describing what he was seeing to the readers in Rome -

"See how I am carnal?"

"See how I want to obey God but I cannot?"

"See how I try but my flesh is under the power of sin even though my mind wants to do right?"

"And then I cry out for the power to be delivered from this flesh that will consume me!"

The next verse is the answer to his plea for help:

Romans 7:25 (cont.) So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Whichever side we choose to be "with" is the law which we choose to obey - either the law of God or the law of sin. Shall we choose to be with God or sin? (see Romans 6:16: "You are the slave of whom you choose to obey.")

And then the conclusion: There is no condemnation because "in Christ Jesus" we follow the Spirit - not the flesh. We are *WITH* Jesus!!!

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are *IN* Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


Amen.


In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.

[RAZZEL]

Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law but with my flesh to sin’s law.

No One of us have perfect self-control. (Romans 7:21-25)

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by RAZZEL

Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law but with my flesh to sin’s law.

No One of us have perfect self-control. (Romans 7:21-25)

You are correct...you are a slave to sin if you do not keep the commandments of God...so SIN ON! slave...if that's what you choose to do with your life.

[little elmer]

My opinion, but I wish you guys would understand that it's the nature we're born with that is our enemy - that's the war we're in. Again, thanks be to God that He's declared war on it too.

[RAZZEL]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

You are correct...you are a slave to sin if you do not keep the commandments of God...so SIN ON! slave...if that's what you choose to do with your life.

Nice Verna....very very nice.... (( CHEAP sunglasses ))

[Verna Perry]

...what my explanation is of this Chapter. Well...we'll see what that means...exactly...I do not have high expectations.....except I do expect much argument...of which I will not participate.

God Bless.

[atomtkirk]

man... okay... the part i was really getting at was the first part of romans which is barely covered here. I'll be back shortly... duty calls.

*short break*

i'm back! now... can you talk about the whole chapter? it seems the part you'd think i was interested in isn't really covered here. maybe going verse for verse and lets see what happens. OR... maybe just the first 10 verses?

[MysticPhD]

Verna,

This is a more complex issue than your obedience/non-obedience view makes it. We are to mature our Spirits and that is reflected in our attitude and character toward God and each other. Our soul's maturity lies in the attitudes underlying our behavior as well as the behavior itself. Metaphorically, (and maybe even in actuality) our behavior determines the quantity of Spirit you produce ("100 fold, 60 fold or 30 fold") . . . but attitude determines the quality.

The general context of the Sermon on the Mount stresses attitude. For example,

Matt 5:21

. .You have been told that it was said to the ancients, 'Thou shalt not kill' . . . But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.

This is why it is important for us to reorient our "Thinking" as well as our "Doing." Our thinking is what separates us from the animals. Animals do not develop attitudes or abstract philosophies to guide and direct their behavior. They merely assess each separate course of action on the spot to determine which response is least painful or more pleasurable and react accordingly. (Evaluate our own actions against this animal model as you correctly suggest, Verna. It is this attitude issue that concerns me most about you, Verna. We are NOT pets in obedience trials.)

Attitude control is the form of self-control that produces the mature Spirit through the machinery of thought. Attitude determines the quality of the Spirit, just as muscle flexibility and tone determine the quality of physical power. Behavior determines the quantity of Spirit, just as muscle size determines the quantity of physical power. If we achieve the wrong attitude . . . even with completely proper behavior . . . we could be in eternally serious trouble because we probably cannot achieve our purpose. But, if we achieve the proper attitude with the wrong behavior it is probably only a question of just how successfully we will achieve our purpose . . . not whether or not we will.

Power lifters can be very impressive. They lift weights primarily to increase the size and amount of muscle they possess with emphasis on bulk and brute force. Bulk lifters use the maximum amount of weight with a low number of repetitions. The mistake that some power lifters make is in using steroids or ignoring the need to increase the flexibility of their muscles and the fitness of their entire body while eliminating fat. Muscle-bound hulks with low flexibility and fat bellies endanger their hearts and their very survival because of the lack of aerobic exercise and the high cholesterol and triglyceride content in their blood.

In the spiritual vein, bulk Spirit producers can be very impressive. They use their minds to inhibit and control every one of their animal drives and instincts. These are the ascetics and celibates who deny themselves every conceivable form of pleasure or fun, and so on. However, the mistaken attitude that frequently accompanies these behaviors is condemnatory, self-righteous, and sometimes sadistic, besides being motivated almost entirely out of self-interest. Rather than a denial of self, it is an egoistic struggle to get special consideration in an after-life for their obedience revealing the attitude: "I'll get my reward in heaven!"

Paul in his epistle to the Colossians warned of this approach, 2:18,

. . . Let no-one cheat you who takes pleasure in self-abasement and worship of the angels, and enters vainly into what he has not seen, puffed up by his mere human mind. . . In this you follow the 'precepts and doctrines of men,' which, to be sure, have a show of wisdom in superstition and self-abasement and hard treatment of the body, but are not to be held in esteem, and lead to the full gratification of the flesh.

The "show of wisdom" refers to the correctness of the principle (self-control) behind the behaviors . . . and to be sure everyone who adopts that lifestyle does not have the wrong attitude. But for those who do . . . their reasons or attitudes corrupt the result and virtually assure failure. This it seems to me can be an especially tragic error for those misguided Spirits who adopt this lifestyle with every good intention of fulfilling God's purpose.

This why agape love is so critical, Verna . . . without it all the obedience in the world will do you no good whatsoever . . . willful or not. This is why Jesus re-phrased the commandments into "Love God and each other". . . revealing the actual attitude that He was talking about in the Sermon on the Mount.

You are correct to focus on DOING, Verna (as opposed to the "No Works" folks) . . . but that is only part of the requirement. This brings us to the majority of Christians who you rail against for not being absolute "Doers" all the time. Most try to have the correct attitude as Christ revealed on the Mount . . . though it is corrupted with vengeance and savage OT ideas about God.

The other form of muscle building emphasizes increasing the quality, tone and utility of the muscles, by achieving aerobic conditioning and eliminating fat, not increasing size. This is commonly termed lifting for definition or cut. The difference is in the amount of weight used and the number of repetitions. The cut lifters use light weights with maximum repetitions supplemented with pure aerobic exercises and calisthenics to maximize physical fitness.

The mistake that some make is in their unwillingness to exert a lot of personal effort . . . e.g. the exercise machine users. Their attitude is good, since it recognizes the benefits of physical fitness. But, their actual performance is minimal because of the amount of trouble it is to work that hard. Thus, the quantity of muscle produced is low, they simply remove fat from the existing muscle structure.

In the spiritual vein, these are the "hocus-pocus machine" or church users. Their attitude is good, since it recognizes the value of spiritual fitness. But, their actual performance is minimal because of the amount of trouble it is to live that way more than once a week in this predominantly practical world. Thus, the quantity of Spirit produced is low . . . they simply remove depravity from their existing Spirit. James warns of the "exercise machine" no work approach, 2:14

. . . What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he does not have works? Can the faith save him? And if a brother or sister be naked and in want of daily food, and one of you say to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' Yet you do not give them what is necessary for the body, what does it profit? So faith too, unless it has works, is dead in itself. But someone will say, 'Thou hast faith, and I have works.' Show me thy faith without works, and I from my works will show thee my faith.

Nevertheless, it is important to recognize that "Works," or the behaviors in themselves, are NOT the objective of human existence. The attitude that produces them is the means to attain rebirth into eternal life. That is how an “eleventh hour” salvation is possible for even the most “wasted” life, IF it reflects a truly changed attitude. Clearly, that is the “gotcha” in all this. Your attitude is all that truly matters and you can fake everything BUT your true attitude! So, Verna . . . willfulness depends a lot on the attitude behind it.

[Mikelee81]

Verna when a believer in Christ "covets" something, does the Holy Spirit leave the person pronouncing the believing "Christian" into a state of eternal Damnation?

[Princely]

Truly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.Therefore if the Son frees you, you shall truly be free.JN 8:34

So why didn't Paul repeat this verse when Jesus sent His followers as He was sent with the same words and mission? Because he was not sent by God. But as you can see I repeat it. You follow the wrong servant.