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Old 12-10-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Insane i don't mean this as a criticsm,because you are a great asset to this forum, because you get us to look at what we really believe, but i think ?? i understand from what i have bolded above,why you walked away from whatever it was you had in regards to the church,bible and christianity.
I can't begin to tell you how much knowledge i sort through whatever means has a young believer, much of what i now count as dung, because none of it really changed who i was, all it did was puff me up.Then i came to understand the heart of God towards me, something that had real substance, that did not puff me up, but actually edified me and began to change who i was.

For me what we know as christianity today is no more right than the rest of the religions of the world.

Philemon 1:6 says "That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus"
.
I find every good thing in this life is in Christ Jesus himself,and not in any interpretation of the bible,and only in him have i found grace,mercy,love and all else that in this life that could be considered every good thing ,and what'smore it's all in an abundance.This to me is what makes Jesus Lord,because there is none like him.

Oh, I failed to tell you that since Christianity seems to be working for you, by all means, if it is making you a better person and helping you to make those positive changes that others can see and share, please continue. One man's discarded trash is another man's treasure or vice versa.
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:19 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Christianity agrees with many of the older religions?
In the way Darwin agreed with Malagasy and Mayan mythology that we descend from primates, maybe.

If you prefer pre-Christian religion that's your choice, but as a Christian I would look at it more as how similar they are to Christianity rather than the other way round. As Christ is "The Word", for Christians, Christ predates all these other religions.
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Old 12-10-2010, 06:09 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Oh, I failed to tell you that since Christianity seems to be working for you, by all means, if it is making you a better person and helping you to make those positive changes that others can see and share, please continue. One man's discarded trash is another man's treasure or vice versa.
The thing is Insane, christianity has never worked for me,just like it never worked for you,Jesus is not christianity. Jesus who is the truth, is not a bible doctrinal truth, but the actual reality of who God is.

Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father, i can admit that for the longest time, i couldn't see Jesus, because of what i believed , can you ?.
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Old 12-10-2010, 06:53 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The thing is Insane, christianity has never worked for me,just like it never worked for you,Jesus is not christianity. Jesus who is the truth, is not a bible doctrinal truth, but the actual reality of who God is.

Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father, i can admit that for the longest time, i couldn't see Jesus, because of what i believed , can you ?.
Jesus is crouched firmly in the bosom of Christianity. Without the Bible (that Judaism and Christianity produced) and without their presence in world history, you would have NO knowledge of a Jesus, right? Also, Jesus never worked for me either. All I did was project what I WANTED to see in myself and the world and a perfect being (READ: God or Jesus) was what mind created or sought out.
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:18 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,331,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nep321 View Post
So tell me. Among the thousands of religions invented by man, what suddenly makes Christianity the right one? Every devout member of their respective religion swears that their religion is the right one. Why do you think Christianity is right and all other religions are wrong? I find it extremely hard to believe that Christianity is even anything of substance at all, considering how the Old Testament was completely written before Jesus even supposedly existed on Earth.

If you do say that Christianity is the right religion, that means Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and all the other hundreds of religions out there are all WRONG! But Christianity is right?

And what about all the years Jesus was supposed to make a second coming to Earth?

247, 365, 500, 848, 992, 1184, 1290, 1335, 1524, 1603, 1716, 1763, 1792, 1805, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1878, 1910, 1914, 1936, 1945, 1952, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and more.

Never happened.
No, other religions are not wrong. It is that they worship God through intermediaries without knowing the Father. Jesus shed his blood so that mankind may know HIM, the only through God from everlasting to everlasting.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:41 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Jesus is crouched firmly in the bosom of Christianity. Without the Bible (that Judaism and Christianity produced) and without their presence in world history, you would have NO knowledge of a Jesus, right? Also, Jesus never worked for me either. All I did was project what I WANTED to see in myself and the world and a perfect being (READ: God or Jesus) was what mind created or sought out.
Insane i firmly believe that Jesus is not crouched in the bosom of christianity, but in the bosom of God the Father. I also believe that Judaism and christianity has produced nothing whatsoever,it cannot take credit for anything. Salvation is a work of God, by the Spirit of God, which comes to man by the revelation of his son, and not what is written in ink.
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Old 12-11-2010, 06:10 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Eusebius, you are not talking to some run of the mill atheist here my friend. I have forgotten more Bible, biblical concepts, biblical apologetics and popular christian beliefs than most Christians currently know. I was eye-brow deep in the bible for most of my life. I taught the stuff in church. I know ALL about Daniel's convuluted 70 weeks prophecy, the gap theory and all that jazz. Trust me when I tell you I KNOW what I am talking about from an OBJECTIVE standpoint.

Now, let's get back to Micah 5 and YOUR understanding of what is there in black and white please. Thanks.
Insane, Here is what Albert Barnes says on Micah 5:1

"Mic 5:1
Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops - The “daughter of troops” is still the same who was before addressed, Judah. The word is almost always . used of “bands of men employed in irregular, marauding, in-roads.” Judah is entitled “daughter of troops,” on account of her violence, the robbery and bloodshed within her (Mic_2:8; Mic_3:2; etc. Hos_5:10), as Jeremiah says, “Is this house which is called by My Name become a den of robbers in your eyes?” (Jer_7:11, compare Mat_21:13). She then who had spoiled Isa_33:1 should now be spoiled; she who had formed herself in bands to lay waste, shall now be gathered thick together, in small bands, unable to resist in the open field; yet in vain should she so gather herself; for the enemy was upon her, in her last retreat.

"This description has obviously no fulfillment, except in the infliction by the Romans. For there was no event, before the invasion by Sennacherib and accordingly in the prophet’s own time, in which there is any seeming fulfillment of it. But then, the second deliverance must be that by the Maccabees; and this siege, which lies, in order of time, beyond it, must be a siege by the Romans. With this it agrees, that whereas, in the two former visitations, God promised, in the first, deliverance, in the second, victory, here the prophet dwells on the Person of the Redeemer, and foretells that the strength of the Church should not lie in any human means Mic_5:8-15. Here too Israel had no king, but a judge only. Then the “gathering in robber-bands” strikingly describes their internal state in the siege of Jerusalem; and although this was subsequent to and consequent upon the rejection of our Lord, yet there is no reason why the end should be separated from the beginning since the capture by Titus was but the sequel of the capture by Pompey, the result of that same temper, in which they crucified Jesus, because He would not be their earthly king. It was the close of the organic existence of the former people; after which the remnant from among them with the Gentiles, not Israel after the flesh, were the true people of God.

"He hath laid siege against us - The prophet, being born of them, and for the great love he bore them, counts himself among them, as Paul mourns over his brethren after the flesh. “They shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.” So Paul said to him who had made himself high priest, “God shall smite thee, thou whited wall; for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law” Act_23:3. It is no longer “the king” (for they had said, “We have no King but Caesar Joh_19:15) but the “judge of Israel,” they who against Christ and His Apostles gave wrong judgment. As they had smitten contrary to the law, so were the chief men smitten by Titus, when the city was taken. As they had done it, was done unto them. To be smitten on the thee, betokens shame; to smite with the red, betokens destruction. Now both shall meet in one; as, in the Great Day, the wicked “shall awake to shame and everlasting contempt, and shall perish forever” Dan_12:2." (End of Barne's quote)

But here is the concordant Literal version of Micah 5:1:

Mic 5:1 Now, you shall build yourself a stone ****, daughter of Ephraim; he will place a siege work against us. With a club they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek."

Often when things are spoken as if they are about to occur it may take thousands of years.

Notice the prophecy concerning the Messiah which Jesus fulfilled:

Gen 3:15 And enmity am I setting between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall hurt your head and you shall hurt his heel.

Adam and Eve surely thought that their next child would deliver them. Little did they know it would take about 6,000 years till their Messiah would come as Jesus Christ.

So, though Micah 5:1 could be said in the present tense it was meant for the future just as Genesis 3:15. You dig?
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:02 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,975,982 times
Reputation: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Insane, Here is what Albert Barnes says on Micah 5:1

"Mic 5:1
Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops - The “daughter of troops” is still the same who was before addressed, Judah. The word is almost always . used of “bands of men employed in irregular, marauding, in-roads.” Judah is entitled “daughter of troops,” on account of her violence, the robbery and bloodshed within her (Mic_2:8; Mic_3:2; etc. Hos_5:10), as Jeremiah says, “Is this house which is called by My Name become a den of robbers in your eyes?” (Jer_7:11, compare Mat_21:13). She then who had spoiled Isa_33:1 should now be spoiled; she who had formed herself in bands to lay waste, shall now be gathered thick together, in small bands, unable to resist in the open field; yet in vain should she so gather herself; for the enemy was upon her, in her last retreat.

"This description has obviously no fulfillment, except in the infliction by the Romans. For there was no event, before the invasion by Sennacherib and accordingly in the prophet’s own time, in which there is any seeming fulfillment of it. But then, the second deliverance must be that by the Maccabees; and this siege, which lies, in order of time, beyond it, must be a siege by the Romans. With this it agrees, that whereas, in the two former visitations, God promised, in the first, deliverance, in the second, victory, here the prophet dwells on the Person of the Redeemer, and foretells that the strength of the Church should not lie in any human means Mic_5:8-15. Here too Israel had no king, but a judge only. Then the “gathering in robber-bands” strikingly describes their internal state in the siege of Jerusalem; and although this was subsequent to and consequent upon the rejection of our Lord, yet there is no reason why the end should be separated from the beginning since the capture by Titus was but the sequel of the capture by Pompey, the result of that same temper, in which they crucified Jesus, because He would not be their earthly king. It was the close of the organic existence of the former people; after which the remnant from among them with the Gentiles, not Israel after the flesh, were the true people of God.

"He hath laid siege against us - The prophet, being born of them, and for the great love he bore them, counts himself among them, as Paul mourns over his brethren after the flesh. “They shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.” So Paul said to him who had made himself high priest, “God shall smite thee, thou whited wall; for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law” Act_23:3. It is no longer “the king” (for they had said, “We have no King but Caesar Joh_19:15) but the “judge of Israel,” they who against Christ and His Apostles gave wrong judgment. As they had smitten contrary to the law, so were the chief men smitten by Titus, when the city was taken. As they had done it, was done unto them. To be smitten on the thee, betokens shame; to smite with the red, betokens destruction. Now both shall meet in one; as, in the Great Day, the wicked “shall awake to shame and everlasting contempt, and shall perish forever” Dan_12:2." (End of Barne's quote)

But here is the concordant Literal version of Micah 5:1:

Mic 5:1 Now, you shall build yourself a stone ****, daughter of Ephraim; he will place a siege work against us. With a club they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek."

Often when things are spoken as if they are about to occur it may take thousands of years.

Notice the prophecy concerning the Messiah which Jesus fulfilled:

Gen 3:15 And enmity am I setting between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall hurt your head and you shall hurt his heel.

Adam and Eve surely thought that their next child would deliver them. Little did they know it would take about 6,000 years till their Messiah would come as Jesus Christ.

So, though Micah 5:1 could be said in the present tense it was meant for the future just as Genesis 3:15. You dig?
Eusebius, this is a lot of Gospel babble forced back into the Old Testament. This commentator clearly has a Christian bias that he paints back into the PRE-Christian era and it is not right to do so. Again, this is another example of putting the target on the tree AFTER shooting an arrow into it.

Now, you have given me what others have had to say, but I still have not seen where you have told me what YOU interpret the words to mean WITHIN the historical AND immediate context of the chapter. I can tell you something. Many Christians will spout Micah 2 as a prophecy about Jesus because it is what they have heard or what they will hear WITHOUT ever once even considering the rest of the verses and what they are ACTUALLY saying. The first time they even hear ANOTHER interpretation is when a critic brings it up and even then, they play it off as if they KNEW about this alternative interpretation but have debunked it. Not saying you are doing this, as I don't know.
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:03 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,975,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Insane i firmly believe that Jesus is not crouched in the bosom of christianity, but in the bosom of God the Father. I also believe that Judaism and christianity has produced nothing whatsoever,it cannot take credit for anything. Salvation is a work of God, by the Spirit of God, which comes to man by the revelation of his son, and not what is written in ink.
Sounds very noble Pc.
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:52 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Sounds very noble Pc.
It is also quite true, Insane. Jesus is alive and abides with us in our collective consciousness as the Holy Spirit (Comforter) until we are reborn as Spirit upon our death. Looking for Him in books instead of in our hearts is a willful retention of primitive ignorance and rejection of belief in His existence as the LIVING Word of God.
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