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Cyber munchkin,
I understand what you are saying: that if we accuse others of doing something, we do it ourselves.
But let me ask you this: if Sparrow's knitting group accuses the stabbers of doing things that are terrible in the name of knitting, are they guilty of doing the same? Somehow, I don't see it....
Finn,
I admitted to you that I misread your post. I wrote "many" evangelicals, not "all."
And I also asked for amends.
Why do you not respond?
This thread was, as Dewdrop stated earlier, meant to point to the fact that we A-L-L need to check our doctrines, because it's by our doctrines that we act!!
If our doctrine is that God hates unbelievers, gays, etc., then we will do the same. WBC was the example, but it could've been another group.
Are we supposed to judge righteously? Jesus told us to!!
Are groups like WBC acting righteously?? I say NO.
Stop pretending that Brian was claiming the evangelicals agree with the ACTIONS of the WBC, Finn. You have a penchant for cleverly avoiding and distracting from the actual issues being pointed out by posters who oppose your doctrinal views. It is the fact that evangelicals believe the same hateful things the WBC believe about the GOSPEL . . . NOT their hateful ACTIONS. It is the publicity the WBC garners that points up the hateful doctrine that bothers evangelicals. They probably wish the WBC would go away and stop publicizing the hateful doctrine that exposes it to such ridicule and disdain.
I think this is a very important point.
I am not talking about ANYONE here on this board. Let's get that straight. I'm talking in general:
I think that the WBC is a sore spot for some people. Because their (the WBC) beliefs are being brought out in the open. For all to see. It isn't hidden behind a nice Sunday suit and white gloves. It isn't hidden somewhere down below the facade... It's in your face. What they truly believe. And it is absolutely repugnant. There are some people in this world who maybe realize that the message they are preaching is actually not that far from what they theirselves believe or what their preachers preach to them. If they really think about it. Not the tactics, but just the message. They are seeing the fruit of their own beliefs taken all the way... to the max. And I think that is uncomfortable and they fight against that feeling.
Where do your beliefs end up if taken all the way..?
I am not talking about ANYONE here on this board. Let's get that straight. I'm talking in general:
I think that the WBC is a sore spot for some people. Because their (the WBC) beliefs are being brought out in the open. For all to see. It isn't hidden behind a nice Sunday suit and white gloves. It isn't hidden somewhere down below the facade... It's in your face. What they truly believe. And it is absolutely repugnant. There are some people in this world who maybe realize that the message they are preaching is actually not that far from what they theirselves believe or what their preachers preach to them. If they really think about it. Not the tactics, but just the message. They are seeing the fruit of their own beliefs taken all the way... to the max. And I think that is uncomfortable and they fight against that feeling.
Where do your beliefs end up if taken all the way..?
God HATES you.
or
God LOVES you.
??
You got it!!
It's kind of scary to think that what we believe (doctrines in church), if "brought to the surface," could be either quite beautiful or quite ugly..
Kind of like those horror movies where something is brought up from the deep..
No, nor do I know any believer who believes God hates people.
Quote them, so we can see what was said.
I would rather not. It makes me feel like a tattle tail. Also - the people that I know for sure that have said these things are not involved in this conversation and I feel bad quoting them with out their permission. I have an enormous guilt complex and I would feel really guilty doing that! You can find them youreself - just search under "God hates liars" or "God hates sinners." You'll find them.
Finn,
I admitted to you that I misread your post. I wrote "many" evangelicals, not "all."
You admitted to mistakenly making a false claim about me defending WBC, but that is another issue. We are talking about the deliberate attempt to smear Christians by associating them them WBC. No one has apologized for it. On the contrary, every ur seems to have joined you in this campaign of smear.
Let me ask you this, though - do you believe a lot of the same things that the WBC group does? I mean - it does seem to me that a lot of very strict Christians believe that God does in fact hate people. I've heard some of the members on this board say those same words. God hates liars, God hates non believers, God hates homosexuals. I think most on this board are against the tactics used by the WBC - but to be perfectly honest, some of the beliefs seem to be the same. I'm not saying I've heard these things from you - but I have heard these things from people on this board. In my opinion, people are free to believe whatever they want - but it does make me sad.
In my view the Westboro people are fundamentalist baptist christians who believe what they preach , they are not hypocritical , they believe that God only loves the elect, and they stand by what they believe, and they have biblical support for this and the views that they have, have been expressed by some christians on this forum .......
What Do Members of the Westboro Baptist Church Believe?
Compiled by Alyzza Martin – Released February 10, 2008
Updated August 11, 2009
The Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas held its first public service on
November 27, 1955. Then as now, its foundational belief was in unconditional election –
a central tenet of Old School (or Primitive) Baptist preaching.
In 1991, parishioners took to the streets with picket signs for the first time. Their goal
was to pressure the local government into cracking down on public sex in a nearby
park.
Since then, they have conducted more than 40 000 protests, expanding their focus to
include the funerals of homosexuals and people who died from AIDS. They also protest
at the funerals of military personnel killed in Iraq, of disaster victims, and of murder
victims.
Their main argument is the same now as it has always been: that when bad things
happen, these represent curses from the hand of God even as good things are
considered blessings.
Not surprisingly, their picketing activities have garnered a great deal of media attention
and public anger. Though certain of their views – that God hates homosexuals, for
example – have been widely publicized, the greater portion of their beliefs remains a
mystery to most people.
I. Election Foremost, the members of Westboro Baptist Church believe in the doctrine of
Unconditional Election as outlined through the Five Points of Calvinism:
Total Depravity: That all people are tainted by sin to such a degree that none is
able to find favor with God on his own merits.
Unconditional Election: That a remnant of humanity has been set aside and preserved
against death and hell at the pleasure of God.
Limited Atonement: That Jesus only died for this remnant - those elected to salvation
by God at the foundation of the world.
Irresistible Grace: That God will save every one of those whom he has chosen for
membership in the remnant.
Perseverance of the Saints: That none among the Elect can lose salvation, but will believe as
according to God’s design.
2 They have ample Biblical support for this belief through the following passages:
Quote:
II. Funeral Pickets
As far as members of the Westboro Baptist Church are concerned, they demonstrate
love for their neighbors best through warnings about the consequences of unbridled sin.
These are the verses that underpin their activities:
Isaiah 58:1
2 Timothy 4:2
Psalm 68:11
They do not think people will pay attention to this warning. Nonetheless, they are dutybound
to admonish others no matter how it falls upon those who hear it (Dear Margie –
October 11, 2006).
This, along with their belief in unconditional election, is why they do not soften their
message in a search for converts.
They’ve chosen funerals as an acceptable location for their activities in part because
they perceive that people are more open to thoughts of their own mortality during these
events.
“To warn the people who are still living that unless they repent, they will likewise
perish. When people go to funerals, they have thoughts of mortality, heaven, hell,
eternity, etc., on their minds. It's the perfect time to warn them of things to come.”
(WBC FAQ)
They believe, moreover, that these protests are a service to the souls of the damned:
Quote:
III. “Statement of Faith” and Church Practice
Westboro Baptist Church does not have a single, unified statement of faith available for
the public to access. The particulars of faith and practice at the church can be discerned
by reading some of the other materials published by members.
Members believe, for example, that the following must be true of any group that serves
God in truth:
Core Beliefs
o Jesus Christ died to atone for the sins of God’s Elect
o The Bible – the King James Version – is inerrant and infallible
o The Five Points of Calvinism (discussed above) are correct
Organization
o The church must be independent, with no formal affiliations
o The church should be well-known in the community, and hated
o The church should not engage in external fundraising, relying instead on member
tithes to cover the costs of operation and ministry
Membership
o Members of all ages must worship together
o People who engage regularly in sin (e.g., adultery, homosexuality, or alcoholism)
cannot be members
o Attendance by members is mandatory to maintain membership
o All members must tithe
o Members can be disfellowshipped (i.e., kicked out) for failing to abide by church
rules
The Lord’s Supper and Baptism
o Baptism by submersion must follow a profession of faith
o The Lord’s Supper consists of one unleavened loaf of bread, blessed then
broken by hand, and one cup of wine for all the membership
o Only members in good standing are permitted to share in the Lord’s Supper
(Memo on the Church, July 21, 2002; New Testament Church Scorecard)
I would rather not. It makes me feel like a tattle tail. Also - the people that I know for sure that have said these things are not involved in this conversation and I feel bad quoting them with out their permission. I have an enormous guilt complex and I would feel really guilty doing that! You can find them youreself - just search under "God hates liars" or "God hates sinners." You'll find them.
You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. But of course you don't have to, if you don't want to, or if you think you think you can't find them.
You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. But of course you don't have to, if you don't want to, or if you think you think you can't find them.
I still can't tell from your posts if you are just being mean or if you are just very abrupt. I apologize for saying anything. I thought it was well known that people on this board has said such things and didn't think it would arouse any suspicion. You can search "God hates liars" in the Christianity forum posts and you will see what I am talking about. Like I said, my conscience won't allow me to bring someone into this conversation against their will. I'm not lying and I'm not making anything up. I wasn't even trying to debate. I was just saying what I've heard people on this forum say. For me to quote someone with out their permission just seems very underhanded to me. I'm sorry.
I am not talking about ANYONE here on this board. Let's get that straight. I'm talking in general:
I think that the WBC is a sore spot for some people. Because their (the WBC) beliefs are being brought out in the open. For all to see. It isn't hidden behind a nice Sunday suit and white gloves. It isn't hidden somewhere down below the facade... It's in your face. What they truly believe. And it is absolutely repugnant. There are some people in this world who maybe realize that the message they are preaching is actually not that far from what they theirselves believe or what their preachers preach to them. If they really think about it. Not the tactics, but just the message. They are seeing the fruit of their own beliefs taken all the way... to the max. And I think that is uncomfortable and they fight against that feeling.
Where do your beliefs end up if taken all the way..?
God HATES you.
or
God LOVES you.
??
Thank you, my wonderful sister! You are correct. It is a shameful doctrine and the WBC publicize it in the worst possible ways.
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