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I was having a conversation with my brother the other night about ET, Annihilation and UR. In the course of the conversation I said that only in Revelation 14 and 20 and nowhere else in the Bible did the scriptures specifically say men would be tormented by fire forever. Notice I did not get into other words Jesus and other writers used elsewhere such as "punished" and "go into" which are much more general terms and which do not give the exact nature of the punishment i.e. "torment, pain, suffering, burning, torture". No, I was sticking strictly to the latter group of words when I referred to torment.
Question: Was I wrong on that account? Are Revelation 14:10-11 and 20:10 the only places in the Bible where it specifically states that men will suffer, burn, agonize, be in torment forever---excluding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which has nothing whatsoever to do with eternal torment?
Question 2: If we are to take what Revelation 14 and 20 says literally, then aren't these verses reserved for an infinitesimal number of humans existing in the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation----a number so small in fact in comparison to the hundreds of billions of people who have ever lived on this earth and who never had the foggiest clue what the beast and the mark and 666 were (much less had the opportunity to accept or reject it) that it doesn't even warrant consideration to suggest that all those hundreds of billions of people who have already died will be subjected to the same kind of torture that the people who take the mark will receive?
In Matthew 25: 41..``Then shall he say also unto them on the right hand Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire preparred for the devil and his angels``....... In Isaiah 66: 22-24..... and Daniel 12:2 .. there is scripture for eternal judgement for the lost people of the world.in Old Testament........Revelation 14: 10 will happen at this second comming of Jesus Christ when he comes and bring renewal to the earth for the thousand year reign..............Revelation 20:10 will happen after the thousand year reign after the devil is released back into the earth and the wars of Gog and Magog camp around the saints and the Lord devoured them who came after the saints right before the great Judgement .... Which will be a sad time for the Lord Jesus who will have to reject his creation in Revelation 21: 4...`` A God will have wipe away all tears from their eyes``.. and you can be sure He will have to wipe away all the tears from his eyes............
I was having a conversation with my brother the other night about ET, Annihilation and UR. In the course of the conversation I said that only in Revelation 14 and 20 and nowhere else in the Bible did the scriptures specifically say men would be tormented by fire forever. Notice I did not get into other words Jesus and other writers used elsewhere such as "punished" and "go into" which are much more general terms and which do not give the exact nature of the punishment i.e. "torment, pain, suffering, burning, torture". No, I was sticking strictly to the latter group of words when I referred to torment.
Question: Was I wrong on that account? Are Revelation 14:10-11 and 20:10 the only places in the Bible where it specifically states that men will suffer, burn, agonize, be in torment forever---excluding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which has nothing whatsoever to do with eternal torment?
Question 2: If we are to take what Revelation 14 and 20 says literally, then aren't these verses reserved for an infinitesimal number of humans existing in the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation----a number so small in fact in comparison to the hundreds of billions of people who have ever lived on this earth and who never had the foggiest clue what the beast and the mark and 666 were (much less had the opportunity to accept or reject it) that it doesn't even warrant consideration to suggest that all those hundreds of billions of people who have already died will be subjected to the same kind of torture that the people who take the mark will receive?
The Greek word translated as "tormented" in revelation is "Basanizos" ... And the literal meaning of the word is "to test". And of course we have already been over what the true translation of "eis tous aionas ton aionon" is. It means literally "unto the ages of ages", and not "forever and ever" ...
Yes, the testing will be painful, in as much as it is painful when we come to recognize the error of our ways and are filled with shame and remorse ... As to the exact nature of the testing(which is symbolized by refining fire) no one can say for certain ...
In Matthew 25: 41..``Then shall he say also unto them on the right hand Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire preparred for the devil and his angels``....... In Isaiah 66: 22-24..... and Daniel 12:2 .. there is scripture for eternal judgement for the lost people of the world.in Old Testament........Revelation 14: 10 will happen at this second comming of Jesus Christ when he comes and bring renewal to the earth for the thousand year reign..............Revelation 20:10 will happen after the thousand year reign after the devil is released back into the earth and the wars of Gog and Magog camp around the saints and the Lord devoured them who came after the saints right before the great Judgement .... Which will be a sad time for the Lord Jesus who will have to reject his creation in Revelation 21: 4...`` A God will have wipe away all tears from their eyes``.. and you can be sure He will have to wipe away all the tears from his eyes............
Recall, please hljc, that I specifically mentioned the words, "torment, agonize, suffer, writhe in agony", or anything similar. Matt. 25 just says they will go into everlasting punishment. It is not for us to speculate what form this punishment takes.
The Greek word translated as "tormented" in revelation is "Basanizos" ... And the literal meaning of the word is "to test". And of course we have already been over what the true translation of "eis tous aionas ton aionon" is. It means literally "unto the ages of ages", and not "forever and ever" ...
Yes, the testing will be painful, in as much as it is painful when we come to recognize the error of our ways and are filled with shame and remorse ... As to the exact nature of the testing(which is symbolized by refining fire) no one can say for certain ...
Thanks for that input, Ironmaw. I was looking more toward just strictly whether there are any other places in the Bible where it specifically states that sinners will be "tormented or tortured in fire for eternity.
As an aside, itn't it interesting that that there is not one verse in Revelation that is purely literal, yet at the mention of the Lake of Fire we are expected to believe suddenly that John switches to a literal lake of fire?
Isn't it also interesting that this lake is never mentioned once anywhere else in scripture?
Why do you say there is not one verse in Revelation that is purely literal? Of course there are some that are.
The second death is literal.
Yes, that is interesting.
>>>>>Why do you say there is not one verse in Revelation that is purely literal? Of course there are some that are.
Well, yes, there are. I didn't mean "literally" that there are no literal verses. I just meant that 99.9999% of Revelation is symbolic/metaphoric.
>>>>The second death is literal.
I'm a believer in annihilation, so yes, I believe in the second death. Whether it occurs in a literal lake of fire is something I wouldn't bet the farm on, knowing how symbolic Revelation is.
By the way, Eusebius, do you know of any verses outside of Revelation that specifically says sinners will be tormented forever in fire and not just punished?
The Greek word translated as "tormented" in revelation is "Basanizos" ... And the literal meaning of the word is "to test". And of course we have already been over what the true translation of "eis tous aionas ton aionon" is. It means literally "unto the ages of ages", and not "forever and ever" ...
Yes, the testing will be painful, in as much as it is painful when we come to recognize the error of our ways and are filled with shame and remorse ... As to the exact nature of the testing(which is symbolized by refining fire) no one can say for certain ...
The Greek word translated as "tormented" in revelation is "Basanizos" ... And the literal meaning of the word is "to test". And of course we have already been over what the true translation of "eis tous aionas ton aionon" is. It means literally "unto the ages of ages", and not "forever and ever" ...
Yes, the testing will be painful, in as much as it is painful when we come to recognize the error of our ways and are filled with shame and remorse ... As to the exact nature of the testing(which is symbolized by refining fire) no one can say for certain ...
hmm....and I had such high hopes for this thread....
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