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There is the majority held view by universalists as:
1.) Aionios means limited duration.
Then there is my view which is:
2.) Aionios means a continuing duration.
Hi trettep,
I think perhaps you are mistaken here on the "majority view". I can't speak for everyone, but IMHO the majority view is not that aionios means limited duration. It is as Rodger and Eusebius pointed out:
aionios means pertaining or relating to age(s).
This is different than meaning 'a limited duration'. It does not necessarily specify exact duration, but it does specify something that is relating to these ages of time that we live in.
IMHO this is compatible with your definition #2 above. It is also compatible with the idea of having a concealed endpoint.
So when we look at aionios life and aionios chastening - we can understand that the chastening is pertaining to the ages. We know this chastening will eventually stop at some concealed endpoint because God will ultimately save all and be all in all (the UR message). We know the life will continue after the ages because we are all given immortality and because Jesus destroys death.
Just how I see it, and just some things to think on brother.
I think perhaps you are mistaken here on the "majority view". I can't speak for everyone, but IMHO the majority view is not that aionios means limited duration. It is as Rodger and Eusebius pointed out:
aionios means pertaining or relating to age(s).
This is different than meaning 'a limited duration'. It does not necessarily specify exact duration, but it does specify something that is relating to these ages of time that we live in.
IMHO this is compatible with your definition #2 above. It is also compatible with the idea of having a concealed endpoint.
So when we look at aionios life and aionios chastening - we can understand that the chastening is pertaining to the ages. We know this chastening will eventually stop at some concealed endpoint because God will ultimately save all and be all in all (the UR message). We know the life will continue after the ages because we are all given immortality and because Jesus destroys death.
Just how I see it, and just some things to think on brother.
Be well...
Hi Legoman,
The reason I think that the age in Matthew 25:31-46 when Christ comes back is a fixed duration is because the judgment pertaining to that age, i.e., the chastening and the life pertaining to that age is the millennium.
I realize there are Universalists who believe the millennium began in 70 A.D. (I am not of that persuasion), but, nonetheless, the judgment in the Matthew account begins when Christ returns in 25:31.
So in that judgment, the chastening and life can only be pertaining to that age/eon. The earth will later be destroyed at the end of that age, and be replaced by the final age (new earth).
Now then, the God Who is said to be the eonian God of Romans 16:26 is telling us that God's Godness (if you will) is pertaining to all the eons. He is over them, directing and subjecting mankind to the goal He has for each eon/age.
The eonian life of those in Christ, however is for the next two ages/eons for we will put on immortality and thus live through the duration of each remaining eon.
The reason I think that the age in Matthew 25:31-46 when Christ comes back is a fixed duration is because the judgment pertaining to that age, i.e., the chastening and the life pertaining to that age is the millennium.
I realize there are Universalists who believe the millennium began in 70 A.D. (I am not of that persuasion), but, nonetheless, the judgment in the Matthew account begins when Christ returns in 25:31.
So in that judgment, the chastening and life can only be pertaining to that age/eon. The earth will later be destroyed at the end of that age, and be replaced by the final age (new earth).
Now then, the God Who is said to be the eonian God of Romans 16:26 is telling us that God's Godness (if you will) is pertaining to all the eons. He is over them, directing and subjecting mankind to the goal He has for each eon/age.
The eonian life of those in Christ, however is for the next two ages/eons for we will put on immortality and thus live through the duration of each remaining eon.
Whatcha think of them apples?
I like apples - especially apples pie.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say here, I'm just not sure on all the details myself. I don't concern myself about it too much other than the fact I can explain (at least for myself) how Matt 25 fits with UR.
This is what happens when you start spinning theories and Greek translations to make them fit alternate views like UR.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but with regard to my comment about being not sure on all the details - I was speaking of eschatology - ie. trying to understand the exact timing of all the "end times" details. Personally I see possibilities in past, present, and future applications.
Anyone who thinks they have all the details of eschatology figured out exactly is probably kidding themselves.
However this is largely independent from UR - UR is plastered all over the bible; you have to be blind not to see it. And many are blind - God made them that way so He could reveal His glory in a much bigger way.
Quote:
It means eternal, so you might as well get used to it.
Former poster ShanaBrown used to post this frequently. These verses show some range on what the words meaning "eternal" can actually mean:
--
On words that have been translated as "incurable", "everlasting", "forever" or "eternal" , ect. in some translations.
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ezekiel: 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no
more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without
blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a
"perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies
for our sins. We now have a better covenant
established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb.
8:6-13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until-- Christ
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
The disciples of Jesus left Him, even Peter denied Him, but they were not lost forever. God knew that they would leave Him, but yet it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself.
I already gave you three reasons why it is probably not a parable, but even if it was, the message is still the same. You can get carried away with links written by other people saying "the rich man represents this, Lazarus represents this, the dog represents this, their clothes represent this, the water represents this, Abraham represents this, bad side is Hades represents this, the good side represents that, rich man's brothers represent this and that and the other thing" and they put all these things in a blender, and out comes an amazing story which has nothing to do with what Jesus said.
People twist and turn and create amazing stories out of a simple message. The message desrcibes afterlife, plain and simple. There is no need to create something else out of it.
This has been happening for 2000 years in regards to eternal torment. We even have a preacher telling us he's been to hell and back,some how he escaped the place that we are told once you are there, there's no escape.
Ask yourself why it's Jesus who holds the keys to hades and not satan.
We are told time and time again that Jesus came to set the captive free and christendom wants us to believe the opposite, you couldn't make it up.
I think perhaps you are mistaken here on the "majority view". I can't speak for everyone, but IMHO the majority view is not that aionios means limited duration. It is as Rodger and Eusebius pointed out:
aionios means pertaining or relating to age(s).
This is different than meaning 'a limited duration'. It does not necessarily specify exact duration, but it does specify something that is relating to these ages of time that we live in.
IMHO this is compatible with your definition #2 above. It is also compatible with the idea of having a concealed endpoint.
So when we look at aionios life and aionios chastening - we can understand that the chastening is pertaining to the ages. We know this chastening will eventually stop at some concealed endpoint because God will ultimately save all and be all in all (the UR message). We know the life will continue after the ages because we are all given immortality and because Jesus destroys death.
Just how I see it, and just some things to think on brother.
Be well...
Man pertains to the ages. To call God an AIONIOS God is to say that God Pertains to the Ages. If God pertains to the Ages then we just applied something less than eternal to God. Because all ages are created as it says in scriptures. If man is in this age and the next, then man pertains to the ages. This meaning of "pertaining to the ages" is so weak that I hear universalist attach changing meaning to it. I know they do it in ignorance. But we have a more sure understanding in #2 above.
spinning theories to make them fit alternate views
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
This is what happens when you start spinning theories and Greek translations to make them fit alternate views like UR.
You mean like the mutually exclusive ET Arminian and ET Calvinist theories?
Humans choose themselves into a state of eternal torment. (Arminian)
God decides the ones He wants to have experience eternal torment. (Calvinist)
Talk about "spinning theories to make them fit alternate views" like ET!!
I think it's quite refreshing to be debating how God is going to successfully get the job of UR accomplished instead of debating against Him not getting the job of UR done at all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
It means eternal, so you might as well get used to it.
I don't think that some of the ETers know that Jesus went to Hell:
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
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spinning theories to make them fit alternate views
