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Old 12-27-2010, 03:22 PM
 
11,253 posts, read 11,270,617 times
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While perusing one of the links Rodger Tutt so generous provided on one of his posts

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

I began considering the possibility that Christianity, like civilization, undergoes an evolutionary process from a more primitive state of ignorance and bondage to a higher level of understanding and freedom from repression, in which the magnificence of God's love and mercy reach their greatest expression.

Everything is in a constant state of evolution---species, fashion, technology, philosophy, you name it. Let's take a look at Christianity.

In the early days of Christianity, what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church was in its infancy and eternal torment, as a matter of expediency, became the doctrine of choice for early Church leaders. Why? Because it was the most effective means of keeping the uneducated masses in strict obedience to the clergy. As a doctrine, so powerful was the threat of eternal torment that even kings yielded in subjection to the Church. Henry IV of Saxony stood in the snow in the dead of winter outside the gates of the castle of Canossa for three days in January of 1077 without shoes, taking no food or shelter, and wearing a garment made of sackcloth, begging the pope to rescind an excommunication sentence which, he believed, would have surely sent him straight to hell without any hope of redemption.

So thoroughly has eternal torment been grounded into the subconscious by unscrupulous religious leaders and bible-thumping charlatans for the last 1500 years or so that it is almost impossible to think of Christianity without the threat of our souls dangling over a pit of eternal fire and brimstone ready to swallow us up forever and ever.

But as civilization and technology ascend the evolutionary ladder, and with research tools such as g**gle and newer and more accurate translations of the bible coming into purview, perhaps eternal torment has reached the end of its evolutionary journey and is ready for extinction.

For instance, Internet research allows the student of theology to read scholarly works that pick apart the pinnings of eternal torment, helping us to uncover exactly why it was devised by the minds of man: as a political tool for mind control, rather than as sound theology based on the words of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. For example, most of us now understand just exactly what Jesus meant when He gave us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus---that it had nothing to do with eternal dammnation as we previously thought, but rather it was a proclamation of the blessings of Israel being transferred to the Gentiles.

And so, as eternal torment is consigned to the dustbins of ancient history and the true message of the Gospels comes into the forefront, we see the theology of the eternal destination of the soul migrating away from a God of fierce wrath, anger, and vengeance and toward God's true nature---kindness, benevolence, mercy, and love; slow to anger, and ever ready to forgive and forget our sins in this world and, most probably, in the next.

There is nothing ET'ers can do to stop this evolutionary process away from eternal torment and toward universal redemption. It is as certain and inevitable as the sun rising from the east tomorrow morning. More and more people are coming to the realization that eternal torment was a flawed dogma from its inception and that the certainty of theological evolution insures that its days are numbered.
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Old 12-27-2010, 04:04 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,839,869 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
While perusing one of the links Rodger Tutt so generous provided on one of his posts

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

I began considering the possibility that Christianity, like civilization, undergoes an evolutionary process from a more primitive state of ignorance and bondage to a higher level of understanding and freedom from repression, in which the magnificence of God's love and mercy reach their greatest expression.

Everything is in a constant state of evolution---species, fashion, technology, philosophy, you name it. Let's take a look at Christianity.

In the early days of Christianity, what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church was in its infancy and eternal torment, as a matter of expediency, became the doctrine of choice for early Church leaders. Why? Because it was the most effective means of keeping the uneducated masses in strict obedience to the clergy. As a doctrine, so powerful was the threat of eternal torment that even kings yielded in subjection to the Church. Henry IV of Saxony stood in the snow in the dead of winter outside the gates of the castle of Canossa for three days in January of 1077 without shoes, taking no food or shelter, and wearing a garment made of sackcloth, begging the pope to rescind an excommunication sentence which, he believed, would have surely sent him straight to hell without any hope of redemption.

So thoroughly has eternal torment been grounded into the subconscious by unscrupulous religious leaders and bible-thumping charlatans for the last 1500 years or so that it is almost impossible to think of Christianity without the threat of our souls dangling over a pit of eternal fire and brimstone ready to swallow us up forever and ever.

But as civilization and technology ascend the evolutionary ladder, and with research tools such as g**gle and newer and more accurate translations of the bible coming into purview, perhaps eternal torment has reached the end of its evolutionary journey and is ready for extinction.

For instance, Internet research allows the student of theology to read scholarly works that pick apart the pinnings of eternal torment, helping us to uncover exactly why it was devised by the minds of man: as a political tool for mind control, rather than as sound theology based on the words of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. For example, most of us now understand just exactly what Jesus meant when He gave us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus---that it had nothing to do with eternal dammnation as we previously thought, but rather it was a proclamation of the blessings of Israel being transferred to the Gentiles.

And so, as eternal torment is consigned to the dustbins of ancient history and the true message of the Gospels comes into the forefront, we see the theology of the eternal destination of the soul migrating away from a God of fierce wrath, anger, and vengeance and toward God's true nature---kindness, benevolence, mercy, and love; slow to anger, and ever ready to forgive and forget our sins in this world and, most probably, in the next.

There is nothing ET'ers can do to stop this evolutionary process away from eternal torment and toward universal redemption. It is as certain and inevitable as the sun rising from the east tomorrow morning. More and more people are coming to the realization that eternal torment was a flawed dogma from its inception and that the certainty of theological evolution insures that its days are numbered.
We can see this process within this forum when a former poster of the ET variety now professes to believe that God saves us all.

We can also see this process happening even with people who will fight against seeing that their eternal hell belief causes them to have to make "assumptions" and even admit to them in order to continue believing as they did before and resolve scriptural conflicts to their belief.

We have seen people move from the idea of eternal torment to annihilation in order to reconcile the character of God they come to realize is in the bible conflicting with what they used to believe.

This in and of itself does not prove anything inherantly true, many people revert back to a previous belief thinking they have studied and learned the truth. However I also see this process happening everyday, it happened to me to and I am glad it did.
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Old 12-27-2010, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
Reputation: 420
thrillobyte....ET is a flawed doctrine because Torment for those transgressing the covenant ended in 70 AD....and the church, as a body, have not been able to fully study the ramifications of this since the canonization of the Bible. Because of that, we have, as a scholarly and theological body of Christ, have been hijacked of hundreds of extremely important pieces of literature dating back to the introduction of the Jewish nation under Joshua and the many alluded to pieces that began during Solomon's reign, for the sake of Orthodoxy, and under its banner for camaraderie. Fortunately, many of these works have been preserved by the Roman Church, as well as many Orthodox Jewish benefactors, and are available either online or in some of the major international libraries and museums. People like you and me, and many on this forum and elsewhere, would have been burnt at the stake for our scrupulous efforts to uncover the fundamentals and eschatological themes of the holy scriptures, and that includes hundreds of the works I am alluding to above. During those times, because of the dictatorial clergymen that held such elated positions of power in the church, and the cries for order and submission, "free thinkers" such as ourselves, and I quote a friend....were often misunderstood and for the first time in history, we are literally the first generation that has been free enough and with sufficient tools to pull these investigations off as a group. There have always been reformers, but the environment has not been democratically enhanced enough to allow for sustained growth until now. Even now it will proceed slowly yet I believe steadily. However I will caution that my statements above are still somewhat generalizations and the issues are much more complex than any of us can outline in just a few paragraphs. There will be a day, in the current trend of things, that the church, I believe, as a group collective, will completely agree on all doctrines laid out in not only the canon, but in the kingdom itself. It may be a few thousand years before that time comes, but it has begun, this century 21. Blessings to you.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-27-2010 at 06:11 PM..
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:19 PM
 
21,870 posts, read 16,702,058 times
Reputation: 8687
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
While perusing one of the links Rodger Tutt so generous provided on one of his posts

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

I began considering the possibility that Christianity, like civilization, undergoes an evolutionary process from a more primitive state of ignorance and bondage to a higher level of understanding and freedom from repression, in which the magnificence of God's love and mercy reach their greatest expression.

Everything is in a constant state of evolution---species, fashion, technology, philosophy, you name it. Let's take a look at Christianity.

In the early days of Christianity, what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church was in its infancy and eternal torment, as a matter of expediency, became the doctrine of choice for early Church leaders. Why? Because it was the most effective means of keeping the uneducated masses in strict obedience to the clergy. As a doctrine, so powerful was the threat of eternal torment that even kings yielded in subjection to the Church. Henry IV of Saxony stood in the snow in the dead of winter outside the gates of the castle of Canossa for three days in January of 1077 without shoes, taking no food or shelter, and wearing a garment made of sackcloth, begging the pope to rescind an excommunication sentence which, he believed, would have surely sent him straight to hell without any hope of redemption.

So thoroughly has eternal torment been grounded into the subconscious by unscrupulous religious leaders and bible-thumping charlatans for the last 1500 years or so that it is almost impossible to think of Christianity without the threat of our souls dangling over a pit of eternal fire and brimstone ready to swallow us up forever and ever.

But as civilization and technology ascend the evolutionary ladder, and with research tools such as g**gle and newer and more accurate translations of the bible coming into purview, perhaps eternal torment has reached the end of its evolutionary journey and is ready for extinction.

For instance, Internet research allows the student of theology to read scholarly works that pick apart the pinnings of eternal torment, helping us to uncover exactly why it was devised by the minds of man: as a political tool for mind control, rather than as sound theology based on the words of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. For example, most of us now understand just exactly what Jesus meant when He gave us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus---that it had nothing to do with eternal dammnation as we previously thought, but rather it was a proclamation of the blessings of Israel being transferred to the Gentiles.

And so, as eternal torment is consigned to the dustbins of ancient history and the true message of the Gospels comes into the forefront, we see the theology of the eternal destination of the soul migrating away from a God of fierce wrath, anger, and vengeance and toward God's true nature---kindness, benevolence, mercy, and love; slow to anger, and ever ready to forgive and forget our sins in this world and, most probably, in the next.

There is nothing ET'ers can do to stop this evolutionary process away from eternal torment and toward universal redemption. It is as certain and inevitable as the sun rising from the east tomorrow morning. More and more people are coming to the realization that eternal torment was a flawed dogma from its inception and that the certainty of theological evolution insures that its days are numbered.
From Eternal Torment to Universal Redemption---An Inevitable Evolutionary Process?

No. Rather, it is a falling away from the truth of the word of God into apostasy and heresy. As we move closer to the end of this dispensation there will be more and more people being deceived by the ruler of this world, which is Satan. Universalism is a form of cosmic deception. And the majority of the people who give themselves over to this heresy will never escape from it because it appeals to their emotions and makes them feel good. Universalists, even those of them that are saved, have aligned themselves with Satan even though they don't realize it, and are being used by him to spread a false gospel. But this is part of the angelic conflict.

All who die without Christ will spend the eternal future separated from God in the lake of fire, whatever the exact nature of that place is.
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Old 12-27-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,012,724 times
Reputation: 22134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
From Eternal Torment to Universal Redemption---An Inevitable Evolutionary Process?

No. Rather, it is a falling away from the truth of the word of God into apostasy and heresy. As we move closer to the end of this dispensation there will be more and more people being deceived by the ruler of this world, which is Satan. Universalism is a form of cosmic deception. And the majority of the people who give themselves over to this heresy will never escape from it because it appeals to their emotions and makes them feel good. Universalists, even those of them that are saved, have aligned themselves with Satan even though they don't realize it, and are being used by him to spread a false gospel. But this is part of the angelic conflict.

All who die without Christ will spend the eternal future separated from God in the lake of fire, whatever the exact nature of that place is.
Maybe it's a hot tub.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:22 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,172,179 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
From Eternal Torment to Universal Redemption---An Inevitable Evolutionary Process?

No. Rather, it is a falling away from the truth of the word of God into apostasy and heresy. ....... Universalists, even those of them that are saved, have aligned themselves with Satan even though they don't realize it, and are being used by him to spread a false gospel. .....

All who die without Christ will spend the eternal future separated from God in the lake of fire, whatever the exact nature of that place is.


John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,818,117 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
While perusing one of the links Rodger Tutt so generous provided on one of his posts

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

I began considering the possibility that Christianity, like civilization, undergoes an evolutionary process from a more primitive state of ignorance and bondage to a higher level of understanding and freedom from repression, in which the magnificence of God's love and mercy reach their greatest expression.

Everything is in a constant state of evolution---species, fashion, technology, philosophy, you name it. Let's take a look at Christianity.

In the early days of Christianity, what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church was in its infancy and eternal torment, as a matter of expediency, became the doctrine of choice for early Church leaders. Why? Because it was the most effective means of keeping the uneducated masses in strict obedience to the clergy. As a doctrine, so powerful was the threat of eternal torment that even kings yielded in subjection to the Church. Henry IV of Saxony stood in the snow in the dead of winter outside the gates of the castle of Canossa for three days in January of 1077 without shoes, taking no food or shelter, and wearing a garment made of sackcloth, begging the pope to rescind an excommunication sentence which, he believed, would have surely sent him straight to hell without any hope of redemption.

So thoroughly has eternal torment been grounded into the subconscious by unscrupulous religious leaders and bible-thumping charlatans for the last 1500 years or so that it is almost impossible to think of Christianity without the threat of our souls dangling over a pit of eternal fire and brimstone ready to swallow us up forever and ever.

But as civilization and technology ascend the evolutionary ladder, and with research tools such as g**gle and newer and more accurate translations of the bible coming into purview, perhaps eternal torment has reached the end of its evolutionary journey and is ready for extinction.

For instance, Internet research allows the student of theology to read scholarly works that pick apart the pinnings of eternal torment, helping us to uncover exactly why it was devised by the minds of man: as a political tool for mind control, rather than as sound theology based on the words of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. For example, most of us now understand just exactly what Jesus meant when He gave us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus---that it had nothing to do with eternal dammnation as we previously thought, but rather it was a proclamation of the blessings of Israel being transferred to the Gentiles.

And so, as eternal torment is consigned to the dustbins of ancient history and the true message of the Gospels comes into the forefront, we see the theology of the eternal destination of the soul migrating away from a God of fierce wrath, anger, and vengeance and toward God's true nature---kindness, benevolence, mercy, and love; slow to anger, and ever ready to forgive and forget our sins in this world and, most probably, in the next.

There is nothing ET'ers can do to stop this evolutionary process away from eternal torment and toward universal redemption. It is as certain and inevitable as the sun rising from the east tomorrow morning. More and more people are coming to the realization that eternal torment was a flawed dogma from its inception and that the certainty of theological evolution insures that its days are numbered.
Think about this Thrillobyte. Who teaches the MOST Powerful God? - Universalists do. They preach a God that can and will accomplish everything He sets His desire to do. Also, which one preaches a Gospel that brings joy to ones ears? - Universalists do. We preach a Gospel of Peace and Love by God's Almighty Power. Those ETers preach a gospel of fear and death. They want us to be so scared of hell that we will change. Whereas the Uniiversalist is preaching a gospel where Love is what changes others. So while they persuade with fear, we will continue to preach Love.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:45 PM
 
352 posts, read 486,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post


John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Though I'm against using a single passage to promote a theological concept, I would ask that you look at that sentence again.

John 6:40
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The Father's will is for everyone who looks upon and believes in Christ shall have eternal life. Not everyone believes, not everyone looks to the Son. If we use this passage, then these people are not of God and not covered in the blood of His Son.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,818,117 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Though I'm against using a single passage to promote a theological concept, I would ask that you look at that sentence again.

John 6:40
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The Father's will is for everyone who looks upon and believes in Christ shall have eternal life. Not everyone believes, not everyone looks to the Son. If we use this passage, then these people are not of God and not covered in the blood of His Son.
But everyone WILL believe in due time.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:57 PM
 
352 posts, read 486,908 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Think about this Thrillobyte. Who teaches the MOST Powerful God? - Universalists do. They preach a God that can and will accomplish everything He sets His desire to do. Also, which one preaches a Gospel that brings joy to ones ears? - Universalists do. We preach a Gospel of Peace and Love by God's Almighty Power. Those ETers preach a gospel of fear and death. They want us to be so scared of hell that we will change. Whereas the Uniiversalist is preaching a gospel where Love is what changes others. So while they persuade with fear, we will continue to preach Love.
I'm sorry, but that is a gross misconception about ETers. Just because we believe in hell and an eternal punishment doesn't mean that hell is the foundation of our faith or our desire to preach the Gospel to others. Like you, ETers acknowledge the love of Christ who died for us so that we could be with Him. His love is the foundation of our faith and it is the pinnacle of our teachings. Is hell taught? Yes, but it is nowhere near as important as loving Christ, letting Him do with us as He wills because He wants what's best for us, and helping our fellow men. I believe in hell, but it wasn't hell that led me to God. It was His Son on the Cross that led me to Him. Again, i'm sorry if I'm coming off too forward, but I'm starting to get the feeling that universalists rely too extensively on these ill conceived generalizations and misconceptions to show us off as being misinformed and/or corrupt in our ways. You are entitled to your view, but the point needs to be made that for ETers hell is real, but it is not how we lead others to Christ.
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