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Old 01-01-2011, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,832 posts, read 12,170,618 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That's another reason why Christ said He only spoke to them in parables (see Matthew 13:13). That blinding began in Isaiah's day. Paul quoted the Isaiah verse as well to the blinded Jews who could not believe.

So what does that tell you?
Jesus did not speak ONLY in parables, as if He never spoke anything else. That is completely false.

 
Old 01-01-2011, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,832 posts, read 12,170,618 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
. we NEVER accuse "believers in Christ" of Satan worship . . stop lying or deliberately misrepresenting what we say. Now the "believers in Jehovah" as He is presented by our primitive ancestors . . . there are some descriptions of Satan if ever there were any.
You know full well the people you talk to here are believers in Christ and you and your ur friends accuse them of Satan worship.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 03:47 PM
 
22,877 posts, read 10,812,885 times
Reputation: 3861
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Wrong again, Finn . . . age-during consequences (not punishments) . . . based on reaping what was sowed.Continually wrong, Finn . . we NEVER accuse "believers in Christ" of Satan worship . . stop lying or deliberately misrepresenting what we say. Now the "believers in Jehovah" as He is presented by our primitive ancestors . . . there are some descriptions of Satan if ever there were any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You know full well the people you talk to here are believers in Christ and you and your ur friends accuse them of Satan worship.
Did you not read what I posted, Finn? I explained it clearly enough . . . I thought. Believers in Christ are believers in Christ, period . . . not the ancient primitive Jehovah as described by our ignorant ancestors. Christ was unambiguous . . . trying to merge His nature with its opposite as described for Jehovah by ancient ignorance is all man's doing . . . NOT God. Jesus came to lift that veil of ignorance . . . NOT merge with it! Believers in Christ believe in Christ as He presented Himself . . . unambiguously, period!
 
Old 01-01-2011, 03:57 PM
 
6,280 posts, read 4,867,448 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Your not asking ... you're accusing God of being unfair.
That's not an answer to a question, that's an accusation. If you don't have an answer just admit it. It'd be much more honest of you. (tsk-tsk)
 
Old 01-01-2011, 04:01 PM
 
6,280 posts, read 4,867,448 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
But God has given immortality to the human soul.
Where does it say, "God hath given (granted) immortality to every soul"? I'm not aware of any such verse.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 04:14 PM
 
6,280 posts, read 4,867,448 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Thrillobyte,

That question is one of the ones that lead me to UR, ---- I do agree with Mike that everyone will be made alive, I believe that all souls will die, I also believe that there is a difference between soul and spirit, what I think is annihilated is the soul, the soul has a close connection to the body and needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and the spirit is saved ---- resurrection is about regeneration not having a place of .

The greek word that is translated as soul is psuche and spirit is pneuma

Note in these verses the difference between soul and spirit 1 Cor 15:44, Heb 4:12,
Well, meerkat, for the record so every reader knows: I posed the following question to ET'ers:

Quote:
Again I ask, how can the hundred billion people who have ever lived who have never heard of Jesus be condemned to hell for eternity for something that was totally out of their control???
And true to his name, twin-spin spins a totally irrelevant response:

Quote:
Your not asking ... you're accusing God of being unfair.
So, to avoid confronting an issue that I'm sure haunts twin-spin just as much as it haunts every ET'er who has to deal with the inherent injustice of their beliefs, twin-spin instead chooses to accuse me of accusing God. I mean, really!!!! Can stonewalling and obfuscation be any more apparent than a response as dishonest as that!!!

So again I pose the question, again hoping for an honest reply from an honest ET'er:

How can the hundred billion people who have ever lived who have never heard of Jesus be condemned to hell for eternity for something that was totally out of their control???
 
Old 01-01-2011, 05:30 PM
 
12,668 posts, read 6,555,405 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Where does it say, "God hath given (granted) immortality to every soul"? I'm not aware of any such verse.
You would do better to ask 'How can it be shown that the human soul is immortal?' I will show you.

Concerning the believers soul:

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

Now for unbelievers:

Matthew 10:28 ''Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

Jesus is referring to unbelievers who will be in hell. He states that man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. The soul of the unbeliever survives the death of his body. God can destroy the soul in hell. But destroy does not mean annihilation, or cessation of existence. It means to be rendered useless, in ruin and uselessness.

The following is from P-R-E-C-E-P-T*** A-U-S-T-I-N
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy utterly but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed.

To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended ppurpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt. 13:42,50).
Romans 2:9-12 Commentary

The soul, which is the real person, continues to exist in a state of consciousness, whether in heaven for the believer, or in hades and finally the lake of fire for the unbeliever.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,832 posts, read 12,170,618 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You would do better to ask 'How can it be shown that the human soul is immortal?' I will show you.

Concerning the believers soul:

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

Now for unbelievers:

Matthew 10:28 ''Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

Jesus is referring to unbelievers who will be in hell. He states that man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. The soul of the unbeliever survives the death of his body. God can destroy the soul in hell. But destroy does not mean annihilation, or cessation of existence. It means to be rendered useless, in ruin and uselessness.

The following is from P-R-E-C-E-P-T*** A-U-S-T-I-N
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy utterly but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed.

To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended ppurpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt. 13:42,50).
Romans 2:9-12 Commentary

The soul, which is the real person, continues to exist in a state of consciousness, whether in heaven for the believer, or in hades and finally the lake of fire for the unbeliever.
Last night I was listening to moody radio, and they were talking about this very thing, and they mentioned the same verses as you just did.

Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". He didn't say "today we will be in soul-sleep together".
 
Old 01-01-2011, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,958,361 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Last night I was listening to moody radio, and they were talking about this very thing, and they mentioned the same verses as you just did.

Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". He didn't say "today we will be in soul-sleep together".

John 11:14
 
Old 01-01-2011, 06:19 PM
 
12,668 posts, read 6,555,405 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Last night I was listening to moody radio, and they were talking about this very thing, and they mentioned the same verses as you just did.

Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". He didn't say "today we will be in soul-sleep together".
There are other verses as well, which show that the soul is immortal, such as 2 Cor 5:8 where Paul again says that it is better to be absent from the body and face to face with the Lord, and Gen 35:18 when Rachel's soul departed because she died. She simply departed from her body.

God certainly has better plans then to put the soul to sleep until the resurrection. Soul sleep is as looney as age-during.
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