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Old 01-01-2011, 06:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
John 11:14
That refers to the body. Not the soul.

And when a person who has died is said to be sleeping, that also refers to the body. Not the soul.

 
Old 01-01-2011, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That refers to the body. Not the soul.

And when a person who has died is said to be sleeping, that also refers to the body. Not the soul.

I'm here all night, Mike.

Eccl 9:5

(you and your scholars can argue with the Bible all you want. Go right ahead)
 
Old 01-01-2011, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are other verses as well, which show that the soul is immortal, such as 2 Cor 5:8 where Paul again says that it is better to be absent from the body and face to face with the Lord, and Gen 35:18 when Rachel's soul departed because she died. She simply departed from her body.

God certainly has better plans then to put the soul to sleep until the resurrection. Soul sleep is as looney as age-during.
And Stephen said (when they stoned him) Acts 7:56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

and just before he died, he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

He knew the heaven was open for him and his spirit was going to be received by the Son of Man. Only the physical body falls asleep, as evidenced in the next verse: Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 06:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And Stephen said (when they stoned him) Acts 7:56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

and just before he died, he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

He knew the heaven was open for him and his spirit was going to be received by the Son of Man. Only the physical body falls asleep, as evidenced in the next verse: Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
That's right. It is so obvious from the Scriptures that the soul and human spirit of the believer go into the presence of God at the moment of physical death. I'll add Acts 7:56 to my notes. I knew about it, but haven't thought about it for a while. Thanks for reminding me.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That's right. It is so obvious from the Scriptures that the soul and human spirit of the believer go into the presence of God at the moment of physical death. I'll add Acts 7:56 to my notes. I knew about it, but haven't thought about it for a while. Thanks for reminding me.
You know what? The dead know nothing. This is a biblical fact. I don't understand why this is so hard for you guys. The force of who we are goes back to God, but WE know nothing. Bible study. Just a little more Bible study for you guys.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 07:23 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
1 Timothy 6:16-17
Again I ask, how can the hundred billion people who have ever lived who have never heard of Jesus be condemned to hell for eternity for something that was totally out of their control???

If I was as tolerant and loving like the new Ilene, I would say:
do your homework we've only answered it for who knows how many times, I know you seasoned here ... so if you really know what's good for you, I'll give you this last chance to be on my good side. For the last time......Jesus' Words

John 5:28-30
for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

those who have done good will rise to live,
those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just,.

Hate to break it to ya .... Jesus said those who are sent to hell are do so because it is the just thing to do.
Here is Satan's version, who desperately wants it to say:

"All" will rise to live,.....those who have done evil will rise to be URed.
Since IMO to condemn people because of whatever.. is not just
Therefore......
  • Nothing to the contrary will supersede what I consider just
  • frankly ..... UR allows me to be the judge, not Jesus, and I kinda like that.
  • Besides, people fall for it .......... suckers!



 
Old 01-01-2011, 07:25 PM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I'm here all night, Mike.

Eccl 9:5

(you and your scholars can argue with the Bible all you want. Go right ahead)
No thanks. I have better things to do than spending the night with you.

I mentioned no scholars. I have however referenced a number of Bible passages which make it obvious that the soul is immortal.

What you have to understand is that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon during a period of his life when he was in a state of reversionism. He had turned his back on God and was thinking just as an unbeliever would think. He was looking at life under the sun. His observations in this condition were false. God had Solomon record his thoughts, though they were wrong, in order to demonstrate to all, the way a person becomes when he forgets about God.

Solomon, looking at life under the sun, was only looking from birth to death. To Solomon at this point in his life, he believed there was no reward after death. When you look at life under the sun, you believe that death is the end as Solomon did. (Solomon did recover and turn back to God before he died however.)

A believer who is advancing spiritually looks at life beyond the sun. He understands from the scriptures that death is not the end.

I am fairly certain you will not understand or believe this. And I'll not go back and forth with you. You have the right to believe what you want.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 07:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You would do better to ask 'How can it be shown that the human soul is immortal?' I will show you.

Concerning the believers soul:

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

Now for unbelievers:

Matthew 10:28 ''Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

Jesus is referring to unbelievers who will be in hell. He states that man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. The soul of the unbeliever survives the death of his body. God can destroy the soul in hell. But destroy does not mean annihilation, or cessation of existence. It means to be rendered useless, in ruin and uselessness.

The following is from P-R-E-C-E-P-T*** A-U-S-T-I-N
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy utterly but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed.

To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended ppurpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt. 13:42,50).
Romans 2:9-12 Commentary

The soul, which is the real person, continues to exist in a state of consciousness, whether in heaven for the believer, or in hades and finally the lake of fire for the unbeliever.
Well, okay. This is a great divide that can never be bridged between believers of ET and believers of annihilation. I appreciate your attempt to "build a bridge".
 
Old 01-01-2011, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No thanks. I have better things to do than spending the night with you.

I mentioned no scholars. I have however referenced a number of Bible passages which make it obvious that the soul is immortal..
The doctrine of immortal souls was always a pagan belief all throughout Old Testament times. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. You can pretend all you want. God alone has immortality--->>>who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see" (1 Timothy 6:16);

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

It is vital to understand that when the Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox church removed the Scriptures from the common people, these churches were then able to bring in hundreds of pagan doctrines, idols, and false religious rites. The mythologies of the Romans, Greeks, Teutons, Norse, Druids etc. were incorporated into church teaching which produced great darkness. Read about the dark ages of Europe which were brought about by Christian leaders, the popes, bishops, cardinals, and kings appointed by the pope.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What you have to understand is that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon during a period of his life when he was in a state of reversionism .
Really, Mike? Huh. Well, go ahead and call Daniel, Job, David, Paul, Jesus, etc. liars, then. Go ahead. None of your convoluted commentary copy/pastes are going to convince me you're right. I choose to believe the writers of the Bible rather than men trying to uphold tradition. I guess you can talk to these people about it when you see them.

These are the writings of men I do trust:

Psalm 6:5. No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?

Job 3:17-19.
"There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and the great are there; and the servant is free from his master"

Job 14:12, 21. "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. (Hi, Job)

Psalms 146:4 No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished

Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord." (Hi, David)

I Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- . (Hi, Paul)

Daniel 12:2. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. (Hi, Daniel)

Acts 7:60. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

John 11:11-14 After he had said this, he (Jesus) went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. (Hi, Jesus)

Isaiah 38:18. For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee . . . the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day.

 
Old 01-01-2011, 10:16 PM
 
10,177 posts, read 10,538,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
If I was as tolerant and loving like the new Ilene, I would say:
do your homework we've only answered it for who knows how many times, I know you seasoned here ... so if you really know what's good for you, I'll give you this last chance to be on my good side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No one is ever annihilated at any time. Everyone lives forever. There is no choice about that. The only choice is where we spend eternity.

And, no one is ever condemned because of their own personal sins. Everyone is condemned on the basis of Adams original sin. Not their own personal sins. One sin condemned the entire human race to eternal separation from God in hell. This is grace. Condemnation must precede salvation. God imputed Adam's original sin to the entire human race, putting everyone in one basket, and then at the right time in human history, God imputed everyones personal sins to Christ, and Jesus took the penalty for our personal sins.

Since Jesus was judged for everyones personal sins, God, being righteous, cannot judge those sins again. Instead, those who reject Christ stand on their own human righteousness - their deeds, to save them. And that is the basis for their judgment as shown in Revelation 20:11-15.
This is a theological belief that is etched in stone. It is a belief so ingratiated in the psyche of the ET'er that an annihiliationist such as myself cannot begin to have a discussion with one. I see that now. I therefore take a graceful bow and withdraw from the conversation.
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