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Old 01-01-2011, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
Reputation: 575

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is a theological belief that is etched in stone. It is a belief so ingratiated in the psyche of the ET'er that an annihiliationist such as myself cannot begin to have a discussion with one. I see that now. I therefore take a graceful bow and withdraw from the conversation.
Mike, is wrong. We are also condemned on our own personal sins IN ADDITION to those of Adam. The law came in that the offense would abound. This means God wanted us to be condemned so that in His salvation it would even be more glorious.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

 
Old 01-02-2011, 12:49 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike, is wrong. We are also condemned on our own personal sins IN ADDITION to those of Adam. The law came in that the offense would abound. This means God wanted us to be condemned so that in His salvation it would even be more glorious.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
No, I am not wrong. The only sin that condemned the human race is Adams original sin. The purpose of the law was to show that man can not keep it and needs a Savior. The law pointed to Jesus.

Everyone who is born is already condemned at birth before he is able to commit any personal sin.

One sin condemned the entire human race. Two or more sins cannot increase the penalty which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 05:36 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
It was said in the parable at the end that even if one should rise from the dead they would not believe. How did Jesus know they would not believe even if He rose from the dead? He knew they would not because He already said God hardened their heart, blinded their eyes and stopped up their ears so they could not.

That's another reason why Christ said He only spoke to them in parables (see Matthew 13:13). That blinding began in Isaiah's day. Paul quoted the Isaiah verse as well to the blinded Jews who could not believe.

So what does that tell you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Jesus did not speak ONLY in parables, as if He never spoke anything else. That is completely false.
Mat 13:10-14 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore
art Thou speaking in parables to them? (11) Now, answering, He said
to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the
kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given. (12) For
anyone who has, to him shall be given, and he shall have a superfluity.
Yet anyone who has not, that also which he has shall be taken away from
him. (13) Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that,
observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing,
neither are they understanding. (14) And filled up in them is the
prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying,
'"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding,
And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be
perceiving.


I probably misspoke by saying Jesus spoke only in parables to them. I should have said when there came a point in His ministry where He spoke to the populace in parables but to the disciples without enigmas.

Nonetheless, Finn, Jesus did not give to them the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus to teach them what happens in the afterlife. There really isn't fire in the tomb, or a river, or Abraham chilling out on the other side of the tomb, or people carrying on conversations while dead. It was just a parable.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 05:39 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, I am not wrong. The only sin that condemned the human race is Adams original sin. The purpose of the law was to show that man can not keep it and needs a Savior. The law pointed to Jesus.

Everyone who is born is already condemned at birth before he is able to commit any personal sin.

One sin condemned the entire human race. Two or more sins cannot increase the penalty which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
Mike, did you have to do anything to get condemned due to what Adam did? Romans 5:18,19 show us that all mankind were neutral recipients of what Adam did. We were all MADE sinners due to what Adam did. What do you think of this?
 
Old 01-02-2011, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The orthodox view of hell is the creation of Satan. The only entity capable of considering an infinite eternal torment(ET) as an acceptable and just consequence for a finite creation . . . is Satan. Anyone who loves and worships an entity that considers ET an acceptable and just consequence . . . is worshiping Satan. It is inescapable. I could neither love nor worship such a heinous entity!
In other words anyone who believes in ET is a Satan worshipper? See the red highlight. That is how I understand it, and when I mentioned this statement on the other thread, you accused me of lying.

So when you say Anyone who loves and worships an entity that considers ET an acceptable and just consequence . . . is worshiping Satan do you, or do you not mean that anyone who believes in ET is a Satan worshipper?

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-02-2011 at 07:39 AM.. Reason: red font is reserved for mod notes
 
Old 01-02-2011, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Nonetheless, Finn, Jesus did not give to them the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus to teach them what happens in the afterlife. There really isn't fire in the tomb, or a river, or Abraham chilling out on the other side of the tomb, or people carrying on conversations while dead. It was just a parable.
Even it if it a parable, it is still a story of afterlife. Jesus used it to explain that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God. If it a parable it is very different from all other parables in many ways, but either way the message is still the same.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,901,103 times
Reputation: 624
OK Hold on there is some sencelss bickering going on here and I will try to settle it.

Parable? Did Jesus lie or did He use His actual knowledge to share images with His followers. Well He is not a liar so therefor the parable are true event drawn from actual history for teaching purposes.

Mystic you need to admit your fault, you are calling people who believe in ET satan worshiper and when this is pointed out you accuse the person pointing it out of lying.

ET, UR, AN, ES who cares? Live as if you are Jesus in the flesh. Read His words, nothing else, just the red letters of the Bible and see who and what Jesus is. No feel good theories just His words. All truth will be revealed you just need to step away from theories.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:11 AM
 
166 posts, read 133,859 times
Reputation: 72
The question as to whether this is a parable or not is easy to resolve, but as some on this forum the scriptures mean nothing if they don't agree with a particular one.

The question is whether or not Lazurus and the richman is a parable, so lets ask this question: was Jesus talking to the masses when He spoke?
i believe He was, therefore:

Matthew 13-34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

But as i said the scriptures have to believed
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:44 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by boanerges View Post
The question as to whether this is a parable or not is easy to resolve, but as some on this forum the scriptures mean nothing if they don't agree with a particular one.

The question is whether or not Lazurus and the richman is a parable, so lets ask this question: was Jesus talking to the masses when He spoke?
i believe He was, therefore:

Matthew 13-34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

But as i said the scriptures have to believed
boanerges, I I echo echo your your statement statement.

My very dear RobinD69, no, Jesus did not lie when he taught on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. He was poking the religious leaders in the eye by what He was saying. He was not bringing out some counter-biblical truth of what happens when one dies. If Jesus was really telling the people that that parable is what actually happens when one dies then He would be contradicting the Bible.

The truth as given by God in the bible is that there is no knowledge in Sheol/Hades/the tomb.

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no
doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in Hades where you are
going."

So in reality, in real life (or should I say) in real death, when the Rich man and Lazarus died they did not really do any devising such as the Rich man devising to get Abraham to get Lazarus to bring some water to him. In real death, Lazarus would not have any knowledge that he was tormented in any flame and Lazarus would not really know he was in Abraham's bosom because God has revealed to us that death is unconscious total absence of life.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten.

The Rich man and Lazarus were in total unconscious death. They actually knew nothing.

In the prodigal son parable, people don't really go to a pig farm when they die. And in reality, in the parable of the rich man and lazarus, there isn't literally rivers flowing through the tombs, or fire in the tombs or Abraham in part of every different tomb and a great chasm in each tomb.

But the truth of the parable Jesus was teaching was that though He rose from the dead those religious leaders dressed in purple and fine cloth still would not believe . . . and they didn't because God blinded them.

Many spiritual blessings to you as you search these things out.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:47 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, did you have to do anything to get condemned due to what Adam did? Romans 5:18,19 show us that all mankind were neutral recipients of what Adam did. We were all MADE sinners due to what Adam did. What do you think of this?
Because Adam was the federal head of the human race, when he sinned, the entire human race was held accountable. God imputed Adam's sin to the entire human race.

Here is how a person is born already condemned. Adam's propensity to sin, that is, his old sin nature, is passed down genetically through the male. This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin birth. Now at the moment of a persons physical birth, the old sin nature becomes active. At that very moment, God imputes Adam's original sin to the old sin nature. This results in that person being born spiritually dead at the moment of physical birth.

Rather than waiting for a person to commit a personal sin, God imputes Adam's sin to everyone who is born as soon as they are born.

Refer back to post #63.
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