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Old 01-02-2011, 09:01 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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O.K. Mike, so you really didn't have to do anything to be made a sinner due to what Adam did.

However, the bible says nothing that Adam was "the federal head of the human race." That is just extra-biblical theological speak.

The way I see Romans 5:18,19 is that there are two persons that affect all mankind.

What Adam did affects all mankind. What Christ did affects the same all mankind.

What confused believers, and I think you are a true believer, is that Paul also talks about faith and that those who believe Christ died for their sins are saved. Believers take that part of what Paul stated and cause it to mitigate what Paul revealed in 5:18,19. Rather than mitigate or lessen what he stated in 5:18 and 19 it just adds more to the picture. In other words, there are certain chosen ones who enter into the ones who are MADE RIGHTEOUS by faith, before the rest are.

This goes back to 1 Timothy 4:10 where it is stated that "God is the Saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY them that believe." The believers get a special salvation. But they still get what they get due to what Christ did just as they get what they get due to what Adam did.

 
Old 01-02-2011, 10:25 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,544,003 times
Reputation: 3018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
boanerges, I I echo echo your your statement statement.

My very dear RobinD69, no, Jesus did not lie when he taught on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. He was poking the religious leaders in the eye by what He was saying. He was not bringing out some counter-biblical truth of what happens when one dies. If Jesus was really telling the people that that parable is what actually happens when one dies then He would be contradicting the Bible.

The truth as given by God in the bible is that there is no knowledge in Sheol/Hades/the tomb.

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no
doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in Hades where you are
going."

So in reality, in real life (or should I say) in real death, when the Rich man and Lazarus died they did not really do any devising such as the Rich man devising to get Abraham to get Lazarus to bring some water to him. In real death, Lazarus would not have any knowledge that he was tormented in any flame and Lazarus would not really know he was in Abraham's bosom because God has revealed to us that death is unconscious total absence of life.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten.

The Rich man and Lazarus were in total unconscious death. They actually knew nothing.

In the prodigal son parable, people don't really go to a pig farm when they die. And in reality, in the parable of the rich man and lazarus, there isn't literally rivers flowing through the tombs, or fire in the tombs or Abraham in part of every different tomb and a great chasm in each tomb.

But the truth of the parable Jesus was teaching was that though He rose from the dead those religious leaders dressed in purple and fine cloth still would not believe . . . and they didn't because God blinded them.

Many spiritual blessings to you as you search these things out.
Would it be cynical of me to say that I have serious doubts about the reliability of parts of the bible, specifically Ecclesiastes?

First of all, the assemblage of book which constitutes our modern bible has a long and troubled history. Men with theological agendas, biases, personal vendettas against one group or another, men who secretly wanted to see Christianity fail, etc.---in other words a motley crew of mostly self-serving "theologians" were elected over dozens of councils over a millennium to cobble together a vast collection of often decaying fragments, halfs, quarters, and if they were lucky whole pieces of writings. It was a monumental task, I give them that, but whether God was guiding their thought processes every step of the way I seriously have my doubts. Many book that theologians feel should have been included were discarded, eg Book of Enoch; many that should have been left out were included, eg Revelation. It's no wonder that today's bible inspires the kinds of divisive heated debates we witness in here.

As for the argument about no memories when in sheol we have to remember that this book was written in a period of Solomon's life when he had strayed far from God and these writing were probably more the depressed gloomy reflections of an embittered old man facing his own demise, rather than theology divinely delivered to him by God. Or perhaps in the OT before Christ's death men did "soul sleep" in sheol, but after Christ's resurrection faithful souls were immediately admitted to heaven, hence Paul saying, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

The bottom line is that the bible, as a whole, is far from "inspired", but it is a valuable historical record in parts and does contain some inspired writings upon which we base our core beliefs about how to obtain salvation. Far as what happens to us after death---well, you've seen how "reliable" it is for settling arguments when opposing views come into play. Most of our answers will probably have to come after death when we stand in front of God in judgement. Then we can ask Him all the questions we want.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,108,802 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
O.K. Mike, so you really didn't have to do anything to be made a sinner due to what Adam did.

However, the bible says nothing that Adam was "the federal head of the human race." That is just extra-biblical theological speak.

The way I see Romans 5:18,19 is that there are two persons that affect all mankind.

What Adam did affects all mankind. What Christ did affects the same all mankind.

What confused believers, and I think you are a true believer, is that Paul also talks about faith and that those who believe Christ died for their sins are saved. Believers take that part of what Paul stated and cause it to mitigate what Paul revealed in 5:18,19. Rather than mitigate or lessen what he stated in 5:18 and 19 it just adds more to the picture. In other words, there are certain chosen ones who enter into the ones who are MADE RIGHTEOUS by faith, before the rest are.

This goes back to 1 Timothy 4:10 where it is stated that "God is the Saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY them that believe." The believers get a special salvation. But they still get what they get due to what Christ did just as they get what they get due to what Adam did.
I agree with you, Eusebius. Man is not "responsible" for being in Adam. It was God's decree.
What the GOOD news is, however, imo, is that God has made a NEW decree: ALL mankind in Christ, even though we don't see everyone saved right now. All have already been justified, and now some are being saved. The others will all come in later.

God obliged man to be sinful, and He obliges man to be holy. Praise and honor and glory be to Him!!

Blessings!
brian
 
Old 01-02-2011, 02:16 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
O.K. Mike, so you really didn't have to do anything to be made a sinner due to what Adam did.

However, the bible says nothing that Adam was "the federal head of the human race." That is just extra-biblical theological speak.

The way I see Romans 5:18,19 is that there are two persons that affect all mankind.

What Adam did affects all mankind. What Christ did affects the same all mankind.

What confused believers, and I think you are a true believer, is that Paul also talks about faith and that those who believe Christ died for their sins are saved. Believers take that part of what Paul stated and cause it to mitigate what Paul revealed in 5:18,19. Rather than mitigate or lessen what he stated in 5:18 and 19 it just adds more to the picture. In other words, there are certain chosen ones who enter into the ones who are MADE RIGHTEOUS by faith, before the rest are.

This goes back to 1 Timothy 4:10 where it is stated that "God is the Saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY them that believe." The believers get a special salvation. But they still get what they get due to what Christ did just as they get what they get due to what Adam did.

No. Believers do not get a special salvation. Only believers are saved period. Anyone who dies without Christ is eternally lost.

Do yourself a big favor and learn some basic Bible doctrine. You need it.

Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX
 
Old 01-02-2011, 02:36 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
O.K. Mike, so you really didn't have to do anything to be made a sinner due to what Adam did.

However, the bible says nothing that Adam was "the federal head of the human race." That is just extra-biblical theological speak.

The way I see Romans 5:18,19 is that there are two persons that affect all mankind.

What Adam did affects all mankind. What Christ did affects the same all mankind.

What confused believers, and I think you are a true believer, is that Paul also talks about faith and that those who believe Christ died for their sins are saved. Believers take that part of what Paul stated and cause it to mitigate what Paul revealed in 5:18,19. Rather than mitigate or lessen what he stated in 5:18 and 19 it just adds more to the picture. In other words, there are certain chosen ones who enter into the ones who are MADE RIGHTEOUS by faith, before the rest are.

This goes back to 1 Timothy 4:10 where it is stated that "God is the Saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY them that believe." The believers get a special salvation. But they still get what they get due to what Christ did just as they get what they get due to what Adam did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. Believers do not get a special salvation. Only believers are saved period. Anyone who dies without Christ is eternally lost.

Do yourself a big favor and learn some basic Bible doctrine. You need it.

Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX
Hi Mike, I hope your new year is going O.K.

Mike, If one goes by the Greek, properly translated, one will see that believers get aionios zoe or eonian life which is the life pertaining to the next two aionas (eons). Unbelievers do not get this special salvation.

Anyone who dies without Christ is eonially lost. But God has assured us He is all mankind's Saviour, especially (not just) the believer's Saviour (1 Timothy 4:10). But the rest of mankind will not get what we get at the same time we get what we get because they were not chosen to be believing nor chosen for eonian life.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. Believers do not get a special salvation. Only believers are saved period. Anyone who dies without Christ is eternally lost.

Do yourself a big favor and learn some basic Bible doctrine. You need it.

Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX
1Ti 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 03:03 PM
 
37,500 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
In other words anyone who believes in ET is a Satan worshipper? See the red highlight. That is how I understand it, and when I mentioned this statement on the other thread, you accused me of lying.

So when you say Anyone who loves and worships an entity that considers ET an acceptable and just consequence . . . is worshiping Satan do you, or do you not mean that anyone who believes in ET is a Satan worshipper?
I now understand where you are coming from, my brother . . . forgive my obtuseness. You and I have very different understanding of belief. Yours is an intellectual one . . . mine is an inner acknowledgment as the core of one's being. What we intellectually acknowledge and claim to believe is irrelevant to what we ACTUALLY truly believe in our innermost heart. Someone can claim to intellectually believe in ET because they have been indoctrinated to think it is of God and therefore somehow must be part of His unfathomable justice . . . but they still truly have an inner revulsion for it in the innermost regions of their heart. They do not truly believe in ET. Others not only claim to believe ET intellectually . . . but rejoice in the thought of ET in their innermost heart. THOSE are the Satan worshipers.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I now understand where you are coming from, my brother . . . forgive my obtuseness. You and I have very different understanding of belief. Yours is an intellectual one . . . mine is an inner acknowledgment as the core of one's being. What we intellectually acknowledge and claim to believe is irrelevant to what we ACTUALLY truly believe in our innermost heart. Someone can claim to intellectually believe in ET because they have been indoctrinated to think it is of God and therefore somehow must be part of His unfathomable justice . . . but they still truly have an inner revulsion for it in the innermost regions of their heart. They do not truly believe in ET. Others not only claim to believe ET intellectually . . . but rejoice in the thought of ET in their innermost heart. THOSE are the Satan worshipers.
It's cool if you don't want to answer the question. Don't worry about it.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,096 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
1 Timothy 6:16-17





Again I ask, how can the hundred billion people who have ever lived who have never heard of Jesus be condemned to hell for eternity for something that was totally out of their control???
What proof is there that they have not heard?
It is not that they have not been preached to-for they have.
I have not met one person in my life who has not heard of Jesus Christ. All I have met, have heard, many do not believe and there is a big difference in hearing about Christ and having a personal relationship with Jesus.

Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”

Mark 4:15
Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
Romans 10:18
But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


God Bless,
Mercy
 
Old 01-02-2011, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
What proof is there that they have not heard?
It is not that they have not been preached to-for they have.
I have not met one person in my life who has not heard of Jesus Christ. All I have met, have heard, many do not believe and there is a big difference in hearing about Christ and having a personal relationship with Jesus.

Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”

Mark 4:15
Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
Romans 10:18
But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


God Bless,
Mercy
Mercy, I believe everybody was given a conscience. That is why they are without excuse. It has nothing to do with a belief or knowledge of Christ. Although, if you want to look at it this way, God is man's conscience, whether they know it or not. We can reject it and do wrong, and we all do, at times.

(and the only reason you don't know anybody who hasn't heard of Jesus is because you live in America in the year 2010. Millions have died without ever hearing about or understanding who he was)
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