U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 01-05-2011, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,631,493 times
Reputation: 575

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes.

The eternal place to which the fallen angels and unregenerate mankind will be consigned forever has different descriptive terms given to it. Here in Jude 13, as well as 2 Peter 2:17 it is called the black darkness. In Jude 6, speaking of Tartarus, though not by name, and which is not the lake of fire, but probably another compartment of Hades, the particular fallen angels who were involved in the Genesis 6 incident are being kept under darkness awaiting the day of judgment. In 2 Peter 2:4 again speaking of Tartarus, this time by name, these fallen angels are said to be committed to pits of darkness, reserved for judgement.


In like manner, unregenerate mankind is held in the compartment of Hades known as 'Torments', where they await their final judgment at the Great White Throne, after which they will be cast into the lake of fire.

The word of God applies these descriptive terms to this place of eternal separation from God.

1) Lake of fire Rev 20:15

2) Gehenna Matthew 10:28

3) The black darkness Jude 13

The darkness probably denotes both physical and spiritual darkness being eternally separated from God.
In that verse is says that the blackness of darkness was only reserved for an age (aion). So why is the blackness of darkness only for an age? - or rather that those experiencing will only experience it into the age.

 
Old 01-06-2011, 12:51 AM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
In that verse is says that the blackness of darkness was only reserved for an age (aion). So why is the blackness of darkness only for an age? - or rather that those experiencing will only experience it into the age.
No. The passage in Jude 13 is not for an age. There is nothing in the context to limit it to an age.

Here. Go into this link and see how Plato, Aristotle, and Philo used the word Aion in reference to eternity. On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal Do you not think that these men certainly knew the proper meaning of the word?
 
Old 01-06-2011, 02:51 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,708,896 times
Reputation: 842
Quote:
Here. Go into this link and see how Plato, Aristotle, and Philo used the word Aion in reference to eternity. On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal Do you not think that these men certainly knew the proper meaning of the word?
here we go again, have you ever read what I posted?

Greek EIS TON AIOoNA - what does it mean?

everlasting punishment - a doctrine based on the "authority" of the Greek philosophers

a further investigation about "eternity" and ages of ages

how do you deal with this passage:

And when the Father that engendered it perceived it in motion and alive, a thing of joy to the eternal gods (aidiġn theġn), He too rejoiced; and being well-pleased He designed to make it resemble its Model still more closely. Accordingly, seeing that that Model is an eternal Living Creature (zġon aidion on), He set about making this Universe, so far as He could, of a like kind. But inasmuch as the nature of the Living Creature was ĉonian, this quality it was impossible to attach in its entirety to what is generated; wherefore He planned to make a movable image of Eternity (aiġnos), and, as He set in order the Heaven, of that Eternity (aiġnos) which abides in unity He made an ĉonian image, moving according to number, even that which we have named Time (chronos). (Plato, Timaeus 37c,d)

Time, then, came into existence along with the Heaven, to the end that having been generated together they might also be dissolved together, if ever a dissolution of them should take place; and it was made after the pattern of the Eternal (diaiġnias) Nature, to the end that it might be as like thereto as possible; for whereas the pattern is existent through all eternity (panta aiġna), the copy, on the other hand, is through all time, continually having existed, existing, and being about to exist. (Timaeus 38)

Plato may have coined the term aiġnios, and this passage is commonly used as a prove that aiġnios means eternal, however Plato says that time is the aiġnios image of time, of time he says it came into existence with the heaven, time therefore had an beginning despite it is called aiġnios, Plato further says that if the heaven might be dissolved, time shall be dissolved with it. This would mean, time being an aiġnios image of "eternity" came into existence with the heaven and might vanish together with the heaven as I understand it , Plato could therefore not have understood aiġnios as denoting literal and unconditional endlessness, but maybe conditional duration or perpetuity as I understand it.


also interesting:


Aionios — The Word to Unlock the Future


Quote:
Platonically-minded Bible writers and thinkers, then, will use aionios in the transcendent and timeless sense in which Plato used it. But the word deserves to be heard in its Hebraic environment. In Bible times we shall naturally find the pagan, Platonic meaning current in Alexandria, that great home of Platonizing philosophy, and also in the writings of the philosophically-minded first-century Jew, Philo. The pagan meaning invaded the biblical view and overcame it when Platonically-minded church leaders, notably Augustine, brought about a grand fusion of the Bible with pagan philosophy — a form of spiritual drug which continues to make Bible reading difficult for church members who, unwillingly, have fallen under the spell of that dangerous mixture of the Bible and Plato. Paul did say, “Beware of philosophy and empty deceit” (Col. 2:8). It is not clear to us that church members are even aware of Paul’s solemn warning. They do not seem exercised about the possible baneful effects of a counterfeit Greek philosophical theology which is utterly foreign to the Hebrew mind of the Jew and Master Rabbi Jesus.



 
Old 01-06-2011, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,631,493 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. The passage in Jude 13 is not for an age. There is nothing in the context to limit it to an age.

Here. Go into this link and see how Plato, Aristotle, and Philo used the word Aion in reference to eternity. On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal Do you not think that these men certainly knew the proper meaning of the word?
Mike the word is aion. That is a SINGLE age. It doesn't say aions. It says aion. Nothing else in the verse speaks to a duration. But since you say it does then tell me what other word there speaks to the duration in that verse?

I don't have to go see how Plato, Aristotle and Philo used the word aion. I have the Lord and the Apostles using it in many examples. And in none of them does it mean forever, or eternity. I have it used throughout the LXX as well.

But again, you say it is the context that says what it means. So tell me how you gained that it must mean "forever" from the context.
 
Old 01-06-2011, 10:55 AM
 
957 posts, read 716,453 times
Reputation: 392
svenM:
Quote:
here we go again, have you ever read what I posted?

mind is made up, set in stone. you'll need a jackhammer to get through.
 
Old 01-07-2011, 10:38 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike the word is aion. That is a SINGLE age. It doesn't say aions. It says aion. Nothing else in the verse speaks to a duration. But since you say it does then tell me what other word there speaks to the duration in that verse?

I don't have to go see how Plato, Aristotle and Philo used the word aion. I have the Lord and the Apostles using it in many examples. And in none of them does it mean forever, or eternity. I have it used throughout the LXX as well.

But again, you say it is the context that says what it means. So tell me how you gained that it must mean "forever" from the context.
The last half of Jude 13 reads '...for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.'

ois o zophos tou skotous eis aiona teteretai.
for whom black of the darkness forever has been reserved.

FIRST:

Unlike the following passages, there is nothing in the passage which limits aiona to a specific period of time. Observe the following passages.

Gal 1:4 ek tou aionos 'From this age.'

1 Tim 6:17 en to nun aioni 'In this present age.'

2 Tim 4:10 ton nun aiona 'This present age.'

Luke 16:8 oi uioi tou aionos toutou 'The sons the age of this' - Sons of this age.

Matt 13:39 sunteleia aionos estin oi 'end age is of ' - End of the age.

Second:

The darkness which has been reserved forever in Jude 13 with reference to men, is the same as the darkness in Jude 6 to which the angels in Genesis 6 who were involved in the creation of the Nephilim, are kept in eternal - aidiois bonds. Now the location is different. That particular group of fallen angels is imprisoned in Tartarus. And while they will be transfered to the lake of fire, both are a place of darkness. So also, unbelieving humanity will be transferred from Hades to the lake of fire. The darkness is eternal. And actually, Tartarus may in fact be another compartment of Hades, separate from 'Torments.'

The darkness in Jude 13 might be referring only to the lake of fire, or maybe it's referring to both Hades and the lake of fire.

Both fallen angels and unregenerate mankind will be under eternal darkness.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 02:24 AM
 
17,753 posts, read 8,888,287 times
Reputation: 1493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The darkness which has been reserved forever in Jude 13 with reference to men, is the same as the darkness in Jude 6 to which the angels in Genesis 6 who were involved in the creation of the Nephilim, are kept in eternal - aidiois bonds. Now the location is different. That particular group of fallen angels is imprisoned in Tartarus. And while they will be transferred to the lake of fire, both are a place of darkness. So also, unbelieving humanity will be transferred from Hades to the lake of fire. The darkness is eternal. And actually, Tartarus may in fact be another compartment of Hades, separate from 'Torments.'

The darkness in Jude 13 might be referring only to the lake of fire, or maybe it's referring to both Hades and the lake of fire.

Both fallen angels and unregenerate mankind will be under eternal darkness.
There is a compartment within the mind called a wicked imagination, which is nothing but cultural baggage that prevents you from thinking clearly.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,631,493 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The last half of Jude 13 reads '...for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.'

ois o zophos tou skotous eis aiona teteretai.
for whom black of the darkness forever has been reserved.

FIRST:

Unlike the following passages, there is nothing in the passage which limits aiona to a specific period of time. Observe the following passages.

Gal 1:4 ek tou aionos 'From this age.'

1 Tim 6:17 en to nun aioni 'In this present age.'

2 Tim 4:10 ton nun aiona 'This present age.'

Luke 16:8 oi uioi tou aionos toutou 'The sons the age of this' - Sons of this age.

Matt 13:39 sunteleia aionos estin oi 'end age is of ' - End of the age.

Second:

The darkness which has been reserved forever in Jude 13 with reference to men, is the same as the darkness in Jude 6 to which the angels in Genesis 6 who were involved in the creation of the Nephilim, are kept in eternal - aidiois bonds. Now the location is different. That particular group of fallen angels is imprisoned in Tartarus. And while they will be transfered to the lake of fire, both are a place of darkness. So also, unbelieving humanity will be transferred from Hades to the lake of fire. The darkness is eternal. And actually, Tartarus may in fact be another compartment of Hades, separate from 'Torments.'

The darkness in Jude 13 might be referring only to the lake of fire, or maybe it's referring to both Hades and the lake of fire.

Both fallen angels and unregenerate mankind will be under eternal darkness.
Your reading into the verse what simply isn't there. Your interpreting aion your own way in each occurrence of the word. Again, the word is aion (singular). It means an age. EVERYWHERE it is used. Obviously forever is more than one age.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 04:44 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Your reading into the verse what simply isn't there. Your interpreting aion your own way in each occurrence of the word. Again, the word is aion (singular). It means an age. EVERYWHERE it is used. Obviously forever is more than one age.
1 John 5:11 'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal - aionion- (in the singular) life and this life is in His Son.'


The resurrected Jesus Christ who was dead and now is alive forevermore (Rev 1:18) does not have life for an age. He has eternal life. The believer is in Jesus Christ and God has given the believer the life that is in His Son. Eternal life. The singular aionion.

The singular or plural of the word does not determine the usage of the word. It is the context of the passage that determines what it means.

Now aion and aionion are both singular. The singular is used in 1 John 5:11 to express the ETERNAL life of the resurrected Jesus Christ whose body is immortal and is alive forevermore. Now our bodies are not yet resurrected. But the believer possesses eternal life NOW. In his soul. The body will follow later.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,631,493 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
1 John 5:11 'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal - aionion- (in the singular) life and this life is in His Son.'


The resurrected Jesus Christ who was dead and now is alive forevermore (Rev 1:18) does not have life for an age. He has eternal life. The believer is in Jesus Christ and God has given the believer the life that is in His Son. Eternal life. The singular aionion.

The singular or plural of the word does not determine the usage of the word. It is the context of the passage that determines what it means.

Now aion and aionion are both singular. The singular is used in 1 John 5:11 to express the ETERNAL life of the resurrected Jesus Christ whose body is immortal and is alive forevermore. Now our bodies are not yet resurrected. But the believer possesses eternal life NOW. In his soul. The body will follow later.
Jud 1:13 RagingG66 wavesG2949 of the sea,G2281 foaming outG1890 their ownG1438 shame;G152 wanderingG4107 stars,G792 to whomG3739 is reservedG5083 theG3588 blacknessG2217 of darknessG4655 for ever.G1519 G165

Strong's G165 is used in Jud 1:13 and not G166. G165 is AION, not AIONIOS.

Aion is singular and represents a SINGLE age in Jud 1:13. So the darkness is only for an age.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

İ 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top