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Old 01-08-2011, 06:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Jud 1:13 RagingG66 wavesG2949 of the sea,G2281 foaming outG1890 their ownG1438 shame;G152 wanderingG4107 stars,G792 to whomG3739 is reservedG5083 theG3588 blacknessG2217 of darknessG4655 for ever.G1519 G165

Strong's G165 is used in Jud 1:13 and not G166. G165 is AION, not AIONIOS.

Aion is singular and represents a SINGLE age in Jud 1:13. So the darkness is only for an age.
You aren't listening. Aionios is plural. But Both aion and aionion are SINGULAR. Your claim is that when the singular form is used, and aion is just one among the related words, aionion for one, and BOTH ARE SINGULAR. And the SINGULAR is being used for what is clearly the ETERNAL LIFE of Jesus Christ. The very life that God has given to the believer, who is in Christ.

Now I have already shown you that the darkness in Jude 13 is the same darkness as in Jude 6 which is described by the word aidios as eternal. Remember, AIDIOS means Eternal. Now Jude 13 is referring to people while Jude 6 is with reference to a particular group of fallen angels who are presently imprisioned in Tartarus, which actually may itself be another section of Hades. Regardless, the two are of the same nature in their darkness.

Now once again. A singular aionion is being used in first John 5:11 to denote the Eternal life of Jesus Christ. Aion is singular. Aionion is singular. According to you then, Aionion would have to refer to an age. The resurrected Jesus Christ who possesses immortality does not have age-during life, He has eternal life.

Jude 13 is refering to eternity.

But you are not going to listen, so believe what you want.

 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:33 PM
 
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Why argue about the word "aionos" ? It's pretty obvious when looking at the Old Testament that eternal punishment was never a Hebrew belief...Or that mankind was doomed to suffer forever because of Adam's actions in the Garden Eden.

Even if Jesus believed in it himself, hell does not exist.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You aren't listening. Aionios is plural. But Both aion and aionion are SINGULAR. Your claim is that when the singular form is used, and aion is just one among the related words, aionion for one, and BOTH ARE SINGULAR. And the SINGULAR is being used for what is clearly the ETERNAL LIFE of Jesus Christ. The very life that God has given to the believer, who is in Christ.

Now I have already shown you that the darkness in Jude 13 is the same darkness as in Jude 6 which is described by the word aidios as eternal. Remember, AIDIOS means Eternal. Now Jude 13 is referring to people while Jude 6 is with reference to a particular group of fallen angels who are presently imprisioned in Tartarus, which actually may itself be another section of Hades. Regardless, the two are of the same nature in their darkness.

Now once again. A singular aionion is being used in first John 5:11 to denote the Eternal life of Jesus Christ. Aion is singular. Aionion is singular. According to you then, Aionion would have to refer to an age. The resurrected Jesus Christ who possesses immortality does not have age-during life, He has eternal life.

Jude 13 is refering to eternity.

But you are not going to listen, so believe what you want.
Your quoting other verses as if they tell us what Jude says. Here it is again for you Mike:

Jud 1:13 κυματα G2949 N-NPN αγρια G66 A-NPN θαλασσης G2281 N-GSF επαφριζοντα G1890 V-PAP-NPN τας G3588 T-APF εαυτων G1438 F-3GPN αισχυνας G152 N-APF αστερες G792 N-NPM πλανηται G4107 N-NPM οις G3739 R-DPM ο G3588 T-NSM ζοφος G2217 N-NSM του G3588 T-GSN σκοτους G4655 N-GSN εις G1519 PREP τον G3588 T-ASM αιωνα G165 N-ASM τετηρηται G5083 V-RPI-3S

AION is SINGULAR in that verse.

Aion means an "age".
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Your quoting other verses as if they tell us what Jude says. Here it is again for you Mike:

Jud 1:13 κυματα G2949 N-NPN αγρια G66 A-NPN θαλασσης G2281 N-GSF επαφριζοντα G1890 V-PAP-NPN τας G3588 T-APF εαυτων G1438 F-3GPN αισχυνας G152 N-APF αστερες G792 N-NPM πλανηται G4107 N-NPM οις G3739 R-DPM ο G3588 T-NSM ζοφος G2217 N-NSM του G3588 T-GSN σκοτους G4655 N-GSN εις G1519 PREP τον G3588 T-ASM αιωνα G165 N-ASM τετηρηται G5083 V-RPI-3S

AION is SINGULAR in that verse.

Aion means an "age".
You are refusing to even try to comprehend what I have told you. Scripture must be compared with scipture to determine the meaning of what is being said.

Posting the verse in Greek and using strong's numbers does not help your argument. The black darkness is of an eternal nature, and I have compared Jude 13 with Jude 6 which uses the word Aidios which is certainly used of eternity.

I have also used another singular word - aionion which plainly refers to the eternal life of Jesus Christ. The resurrected Jesus Christ does not have age-during life. He has eternal life.

Now. Just as a singular word - aionion, is used to describe eternal as opposed to age-during, in 1 John 5:11, so also, in Jude 13 a singular word - aion, is used to describe the black darkness which is reserved forever for those who are being discussed.

All right. This discussion has gone on long enough. You aren't going to listen. And I have better things to do with my time.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:42 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
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The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment

Hummmmmmm, kinda like a never-ending Baptist Sunday Service??
 
Old 01-09-2011, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are refusing to even try to comprehend what I have told you. Scripture must be compared with scipture to determine the meaning of what is being said.
I comprehend what your saying but it is a flawed answer to the question.
Mike we don't need to compare scripture to know what aion means. It means "age" and in Jude it is singular.

Quote:
Posting the verse in Greek and using strong's numbers does not help your argument. The black darkness is of an eternal nature, and I have compared Jude 13 with Jude 6 which uses the word Aidios which is certainly used of eternity.
Sure it does. Jude 1:13 doesn't use Aidios so your comparing apples to oranges. Where is the rationality in that. That is just preaching confusion.

Quote:
I have also used another singular word - aionion which plainly refers to the eternal life of Jesus Christ. The resurrected Jesus Christ does not have age-during life. He has eternal life.
Aionion is not in Jude 1:13 either. These are fallacy arguments Mike. That is two red herrings you presented.

Quote:
Now. Just as a singular word - aionion, is used to describe eternal as opposed to age-during, in 1 John 5:11, so also, in Jude 13 a singular word - aion, is used to describe the black darkness which is reserved forever for those who are being discussed.

All right. This discussion has gone on long enough. You aren't going to listen. And I have better things to do with my time.
Mike I listened to your argument but listening doesn't mean I accept what is obviously wrong especially when it is delivered with fallacies.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 01:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I comprehend what your saying but it is a flawed answer to the question.
Mike we don't need to compare scripture to know what aion means. It means "age" and in Jude it is singular.



Sure it does. Jude 1:13 doesn't use Aidios so your comparing apples to oranges. Where is the rationality in that. That is just preaching confusion.



Aionion is not in Jude 1:13 either. These are fallacy arguments Mike. That is two red herrings you presented.



Mike I listened to your argument but listening doesn't mean I accept what is obviously wrong especially when it is delivered with fallacies.
Aion is singular. Aionion is also singular. Aionion is from the word Aion. In 1 John 5:11 Aionion is used for something which is eternal. It is used for the eternal life of Jesus. According to you, whenever the singular is used it must refer to something that is only for an age. As 1 John 5:11 shows, this is incorrect. It also shows that the singular Aion in Jude 13 does not have to refer to something that is only for an age. I have shown that the darkness referred to in Jude 6 is eternal. The darkness in Jude 13 is also eternal. Both passages refer to judgment. And the judgment is eternal.

Now again, believe what you want.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Aion is singular. Aionion is also singular. Aionion is from the word Aion. In 1 John 5:11 Aionion is used for something which is eternal. It is used for the eternal life of Jesus. According to you, whenever the singular is used it must refer to something that is only for an age. As 1 John 5:11 shows, this is incorrect. It also shows that the singular Aion in Jude 13 does not have to refer to something that is only for an age. I have shown that the darkness referred to in Jude 6 is eternal. The darkness in Jude 13 is also eternal. Both passages refer to judgment. And the judgment is eternal.

Now again, believe what you want.
Aion is singular in Jude 1:13. Aionion is not in the that verse at all. So why the red herring?

Aion is not the same meaning or word as Aionion regardless if it aionion uses aion as its root.

I have shown that the SOURCE text of the King James version bible says that the word aion is SINGULAR. We also know that the word AION means "age". So put it together it means that the darkness in Jude 1:13 is into the age.

YLT:
Jud 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 02:43 PM
 
20,402 posts, read 15,769,729 times
Reputation: 7598
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Aion is singular in Jude 1:13. Aionion is not in the that verse at all. So why the red herring?

Aion is not the same meaning or word as Aionion regardless if it aionion uses aion as its root.

I have shown that the SOURCE text of the King James version bible says that the word aion is SINGULAR. We also know that the word AION means "age". So put it together it means that the darkness in Jude 1:13 is into the age.

YLT:
Jud 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.
This is not about whether aionion is in the verse. It is about the fact that as the word aion is in the singular, so too is aionion in the singular. Therefore the singular form does not have to be confined to an age.



Look. You have the variations of aion. Aionos, aionios, aionas aionon,aiona, and I think there are others. Some are singular in form. Others are plural.

Both aion and aionion are in the singular. I am not saying that aionion is in Jude 13. I am saying that in the same way that aion is singular, so too is aionion. And in 1 John 5:11, aionion which is singular does not refer to something that is age during. It refers to something that is eternal. The eternal life which is in Christ Jesus. You are the one who is saying that the singular form refers only to an age. Well I just showed you that a singular form word that is from aion refers to something eternal.

The meaning of aion is not confined to an age.

Aion has the same range of meaning as the other words, depending on the context.

Now I don't expect you to believe the experts in Greek any more than you believe me. But here is what two experts say concerning the meaning of aion.

Excerpt:
According to Thayer, aion is used in the New Testament numerous times simply to mean “forever” (1962, p. 19). He then defined aionios in the following three ways: (1) “without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be;” (2) “without beginning;” and (3) “without end, never to cease, everlasting” (p. 20).

Excerpt:
The first definition Hermann Sasse provided for aion in the highly regarded Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is “in the sense of prolonged time or eternity” (1964, 1:198). Later, when discussing aionios “as a term for the object eschatological expectation,” he indicated that it likewise is used to mean “unceasing” or “endless,” while sometimes extending beyond the purely temporal meaning (1:209; see also Carson, 1996, p. 523).

Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]

All right. To all who are reading this, believe what you want. Going back and forth, back and forth is a waste of time.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 04:18 PM
 
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"Chains are only eternal in the sense that there is no beginning or end; unbroken, continuous, and outside of time."

Until, their day of judgment.

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