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Old 12-30-2010, 11:45 PM
 
5,431 posts, read 2,548,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those interested may refer to Dan. 12:2, John 5:28-29, and Acts 24:15.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So what have we established from those verses? - that none of them speak of the wicked as having received Eternal Life for being wicked and that none of them speak of the wicked to receive immortality.

 
Old 12-31-2010, 02:43 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 865,179 times
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Quote:
Consider also the following differences between either cessation of consciousness/annihilation and punishment: (1) There are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.).
I think the author refutes his own argumentation, there is no degree in everlasting suffering either, wether you burn at 1000 Celsius or at 2000 Celsius doesn't make a difference at all if you are burning for infinity, or do you think otherwise?

By his own argumentation he has proven in my opinion that the bible only can teach universalism - own goal

also read this

34) The wicked are annihilated

Quote:
How much more serious, then, is even the slightest offense against an absolutely holy God, who is worthy of our complete and perpetual allegiance? [9] Indeed, sin against an absolutely holy God is absolutely serious. For this reason, the unredeemed suffer absolute, unending alienation from God; this alienation is the essence of hell. It is the annihilationist's theory that is morally flawed. Their God is not truly holy, for he does not demand that sin receive its due.
see here:

God's holyness and everlasting punishment

Quote:
The Duration of Hell From Matthew 25:41, 46. The Greek adjective aionion used in these verses means "everlasting, without end." We should note, however, that in certain contexts the adjective aionios is not always used of eternity. In some passages it refers to an "age" or period of time. Luke 1:70, for example, says that God "spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from of old (ap aionos)." Clearly, this cannot be a reference to eternity past. A similar construction is found in Acts 3:21. On the other hand, the adjective is predicated of God (i.e., the "eternal God"), as in 1 Timothy 1:7, Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, and 13:8. In these latter passages aionios means "eternal," as shown from their context and from the fact that God is the subject.
Granting that the term may or may not refer to eternity, how can we be sure of its meaning in Matthew 25? What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective aionios is used to describe both the length of punishment for the wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked without at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked. John Broadus, in his classic commentary on Matthew, states, "It will at once be granted, by any unprejudiced and docile mind, that the punishment of the wicked will last as long as the life of the righteous; it is to the last degree improbable that the Great Teacher would have used an expression so inevitably suggesting a great doctrine he did not mean to teach...."
see here:

A physicalistic approach to Matthew 25:46

Matthew 25:46

conservative Prof. Stroeter on the subject of everlasting punishment

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/D...heNations.html







Last edited by svenM; 12-31-2010 at 02:53 AM..
 
Old 12-31-2010, 03:08 AM
 
Location: California
24,467 posts, read 14,816,823 times
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If god wanted me to believe in him he would have made my mind capable of it. It's not "sin" or my stubborn will that refuses to accept things, it's that darn logic. If I'm to spend eternity in hell burning in a lake of fire then so be it. I can't change a thing anyway...I can not believe what I find unbelievable. I can fake it (like so many do) but I doubt god would fall for that.

So, Mike, sleep well on that.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 04:34 AM
 
4,371 posts, read 2,290,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
If god wanted me to believe in him he would have made my mind capable of it. It's not "sin" or my stubborn will that refuses to accept things, it's that darn logic. If I'm to spend eternity in hell burning in a lake of fire then so be it. I can't change a thing anyway...I can not believe what I find unbelievable. I can fake it (like so many do) but I doubt god would fall for that. .
The Lord Jesus does equip anybody to believe in him who goes to him and turns their lives over to Christ....... but you have to go out into the city were you live and find a church were the gospel is preached and there is clear evidence of Jesus Holy Spirit, ......If Holy Spirit is water down in that church than go to another `till you find one and stay there........ The church were I go sent out the pastor on a mission in India and the Lords Holy Spirit brought over 200 miracles of healing by the prayers of 4 people in 2 weeks, .. and some of these were miracles of bind recovering to sight, hearing recovering , pain disappearing, witness of Jesus spirit at some churches...... just saying the Lord Jesus has a spirit beyond measure who will take your soul and spirit out of harms way when you pass, but you must know Jesus Holy Spirit
 
Old 12-31-2010, 06:28 AM
 
10,142 posts, read 4,378,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The purpose of this post is to simply direct the readers attention to a well written paper by Alan W. Gomes, Assistant Professor of Historical Theology at Talbot School of Theology, La Mirada, California. He received his Ph.D in historical theology from Fuller Theological Seminary.

In this paper, Dr. Gomes refutes the teaching of Annihilationism. In presenting the orthodox position that those who do not accept God's offer of salvation in Christ will suffer conscious, everlasting torment, Universalism is also refuted. But the focus is on Annihilationism.

I hope that the reader will carefully read the paper, which is in two parts, completely and carefully. Without further comment, here is Dr. Gomes paper.

Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part One

Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part Two
Mike, why didn't Alan write about Jesus ransoming all mankind and based upon that that God will save all mankind per 1 Timothy 2:4-6?

And why didn't Alan do what God tells him to do by telling everyone God will save all mankind and God is the Saviour of all mankind per 1 Timothy 4:10,11?

I mean, 1 Timothy 4:11 actually tells Alan to charge and teach that God will save all mankind and is the Saviour of all mankind, so why is he disobedient?

We are not told to charge and teach that "God will not save all mankind" or that "God is not the Saviour of all mankind."

Shame on Alan for being disobedient and doing exatcly the opposite of what God tells him to do.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 06:43 AM
 
5,431 posts, read 2,548,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
The Lord Jesus does equip anybody to believe in him who goes to him and turns their lives over to Christ....... but you have to go out into the city were you live and find a church were the gospel is preached and there is clear evidence of Jesus Holy Spirit, ......If Holy Spirit is water down in that church than go to another `till you find one and stay there........ The church were I go sent out the pastor on a mission in India and the Lords Holy Spirit brought over 200 miracles of healing by the prayers of 4 people in 2 weeks, .. and some of these were miracles of bind recovering to sight, hearing recovering , pain disappearing, witness of Jesus spirit at some churches...... just saying the Lord Jesus has a spirit beyond measure who will take your soul and spirit out of harms way when you pass, but you must know Jesus Holy Spirit
You don't get what ceece is saying. Ceece is saying that if he/she doesn't have belief then ceece isn't going to do any of those things. Who is going to give Ceece belief? Has to come from somewhere. We don't manufacture belief ourselves.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 08:27 AM
 
12,346 posts, read 14,142,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So Jesus was separted from God when He died, correct?

I believe Jesus was separated from God as He endured the agony and pain of the burden of sin..and therefore separated from God by sin.(not His sin--the burden of our sin which He took from us...) "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" was a cry from the flesh, then "It is finished"is the cry of victory.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 08:28 AM
 
12,232 posts, read 5,827,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, why didn't Alan write about Jesus ransoming all mankind and based upon that that God will save all mankind per 1 Timothy 2:4-6?

And why didn't Alan do what God tells him to do by telling everyone God will save all mankind and God is the Saviour of all mankind per 1 Timothy 4:10,11?

I mean, 1 Timothy 4:11 actually tells Alan to charge and teach that God will save all mankind and is the Saviour of all mankind, so why is he disobedient?

We are not told to charge and teach that "God will not save all mankind" or that "God is not the Saviour of all mankind."

Shame on Alan for being disobedient and doing exatcly the opposite of what God tells him to do.
As per 1 Tim 4:9, Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men in that through His work on the cross of paying the penalty for mans sins, He made salvation possible for all men. He is the Savior especially of believers in that only those who believe in Christ for salvation, are actually saved.

As per 1 Timothy 2:4-6, Jesus Christ purchased all mankind from the slavemarket of sin. Sin is not an issue in salvation. The barrier of sin which stood beween God and man has been eliminated. But everyone must make a decision to walk over the line where the barrier of sin used to be. That is done by placing your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. No one is automatically saved.

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.'

Jesus died for the world. Only those who believe in Him will have eternal life.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 09:05 AM
 
12,232 posts, read 5,827,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
I believe Jesus was separated from God as He endured the agony and pain of the burden of sin..and therefore separated from God by sin.(not His sin--the burden of our sin which He took from us...) "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" was a cry from the flesh, then "It is finished"is the cry of triumph.
Yes. The penalty for sin is spiritual death, which is separation from God. As long as Jesus Christ was in contact with even one sin, God the Father had to break contact with Jesus. From 12:00 noon until about 3:00PM, the last three hours that He was on the cross, Jesus actually bore all the sins of every person in all of human history, And it was unimaginally painful to Jesus.

When Jesus had finished paying the penalty, He shouted 'It is finished'. 'Tetelestai' A Greek word having to do with the completion of a financial transaction.

Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,354 posts, read 10,855,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The purpose of this post is to simply direct the readers attention to a well written paper by Alan W. Gomes, Assistant Professor of Historical Theology at Talbot School of Theology, La Mirada, California. He received his Ph.D in historical theology from Fuller Theological Seminary.

In this paper, Dr. Gomes refutes the teaching of Annihilationism. In presenting the orthodox position that those who do not accept God's offer of salvation in Christ will suffer conscious, everlasting torment, Universalism is also refuted. But the focus is on Annihilationism.

I hope that the reader will carefully read the paper, which is in two parts, completely and carefully. Without further comment, here is Dr. Gomes paper.

Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part One

Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part Two
Good read. Thanks.
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