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Old 12-31-2010, 05:45 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,770,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
The truth kept coming after you.
Yes it most certainly did.....I kept getting drawn back in and I didn't know why but now I do!!

 
Old 12-31-2010, 07:13 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Yes -- and don't try to say this is just a parable. Parables don't use real names. This is a real account of two people who once lived on earth.

Luke 16
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

If that wasn't a parable, scgraham, then we must conclude that the rich man went there just because he got good things in this life:

Luk 16:25 Now Abraham said, 'Child, be reminded that you got your good
things in your life, and Lazarus likewise evil things. Yet now here he is
being consoled, yet you are in pain."

So if you want to be assured of eternal life just make sure you are poor as snot and receive alot of evil in this life. Who needs Jesus?

But the good news is that if this is a true account of what happens when one dies that it happened before Christ died for their sins and one day that rich man will be saved for Romans 5:18,19; 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10; 1 Cor.15:22-28 among others says he will be.

Doesn't that just make you rejoice that Christ died for his sins too and he too will be saved?
 
Old 12-31-2010, 07:33 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,304,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment
Only if you buy into the fable that hell exists.

It appears that many "believe" in hell, and it creates a great deal of stress and fear in their lives. They create their own hell in the here and now. Self flagellation of one's sanity by means of an irrational fear.

But when one never believed in hell, or freed themselves from the fear by recognizing that it is just the ultimate scare tactic that christianity uses to control the masses, often starting as very young children being told they are going to hell if they don't obey, a clear sign of desperation on the part of parents that have minimal parenting skills.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 07:46 AM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,685,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
If that wasn't a parable, scgraham, then we must conclude that the rich man went there just because he got good things in this life:
No, that's what your doctrine concludes. But, a reasonable conclusion is that the rich man went to the torments of an everlasting hell because he was selfish and had no love; he was even selfish in hell, as he wanted Lazarus, who had such a horrible life on earth, to leave the comfort of heaven to come down to hell and serve him by cooling his tongue. And, the rich man only seemed concerned about telling his brothers about hell, yet there were so many other people on earth who needed to hear the truth too. Yes, the unbelieving rich man all of a sudden became a believer, yet his same old ugly spirit remained with him in hell.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 07:56 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
No, that's what your doctrine concludes. But, a reasonable conclusion is that the rich man went to the torments of an everlasting hell because he was selfish and had no love; he was even selfish in hell, as he wanted Lazarus, who had such a horrible life on earth, to leave the comfort of heaven to come down to hell and serve him by cooling his tongue. And, the rich man only seemed concerned about telling his brothers about hell, yet there were so many other people on earth who needed to hear the truth too. Yes, the unbelieving rich man all of a sudden became a believer, yet his same old ugly spirit remained with him in hell.
Dear scgraham,
Thanks for your thoughts on the above. I still see some problems with it though.

Jesus never said the Rich man went to an everlasting hell. He just said he went to Hades. In the Old Testament of the Greek New Testament translated from Hebrew by Hebrew scholars into Greek, they translated Sheol as Hades. What is Sheol? The grave or tomb. So what is Hades? The grave or tomb.

Now then, that being the case, is there reallly a river flowing through any tomb that people were entombed in? Is there fire in tombs? Are people concsiously awake while in death? The bible says the dead know nothing.

Do tombs have two compartments? one with fire separated by a river and the other side of the tomb have Abraham accepting poor people into his bosom?

One last thing about Hades: You say it is everlasting hell. But the Bible shows that everyone gets out of Hades in Revelation, so how can it possibly be everlasting?

I hope your new year is filled with new and greater understanding of God's word.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 08:11 AM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,685,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear scgraham,
Thanks for your thoughts on the above. I still see some problems with it though.

Jesus never said the Rich man went to an everlasting hell. He just said he went to Hades. In the Old Testament of the Greek New Testament translated from Hebrew by Hebrew scholars into Greek, they translated Sheol as Hades. What is Sheol? The grave or tomb. So what is Hades? The grave or tomb.

Now then, that being the case, is there reallly a river flowing through any tomb that people were entombed in? Is there fire in tombs? Are people concsiously awake while in death? The bible says the dead know nothing.

Do tombs have two compartments? one with fire separated by a river and the other side of the tomb have Abraham accepting poor people into his bosom?

One last thing about Hades: You say it is everlasting hell. But the Bible shows that everyone gets out of Hades in Revelation, so how can it possibly be everlasting?

I hope your new year is filled with new and greater understanding of God's word.
Jesus gives us more information about the everlasting torments of hell.

Matthew 25
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, according to Jesus, people are sent into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. Does the Word gives us more information about the duration of this everlasting fire?

Revelation 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Word makes it clear that the torments of hell fire is everlasting. The only way around this truth is to declare that the Bible has been mistranslated, in which case they might as well throw the entire Bible away because they are unbelievers, doubters and skeptics. They have a form of godliness only, but not in truth.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Somewhere Out West
2,222 posts, read 2,045,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And I have no intention of pointlessly debating with those who have made obvious, that they are closed to anything other than that which they already believe.
HAHAHAHAHAHA irony alert.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 10:15 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,845,798 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Jesus gives us more information about the everlasting torments of hell.

Matthew 25
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, according to Jesus, people are sent into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. Does the Word gives us more information about the duration of this everlasting fire?

Revelation 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Word makes it clear that the torments of hell fire is everlasting. The only way around this truth is to declare that the Bible has been mistranslated, in which case they might as well throw the entire Bible away because they are unbelievers, doubters and skeptics. They have a form of godliness only, but not in truth.

That sums it up.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,625 posts, read 32,096,873 times
Reputation: 9437
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
No, that's what your doctrine concludes. But, a reasonable conclusion is that the rich man went to the torments of an everlasting hell because he was selfish and had no love; he was even selfish in hell, as he wanted Lazarus, who had such a horrible life on earth, to leave the comfort of heaven to come down to hell and serve him by cooling his tongue. And, the rich man only seemed concerned about telling his brothers about hell, yet there were so many other people on earth who needed to hear the truth too. Yes, the unbelieving rich man all of a sudden became a believer, yet his same old ugly spirit remained with him in hell.
Yep, he did not listen to Moses and the prophts. He was in Hades because of his unbelief. Abraham's advice concerning his brothers was to listen to Moses and the prophets.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:29 AM
 
10,214 posts, read 10,596,849 times
Reputation: 3055
Many people misunderstand the nature of annihilation. Gnomes makes the common error of stating that annihilationists believe that all sinners regardless of their individual "record" will be destroyed at the same time. God, Jesus and Paul make it abundantly clear that each receives the just recompense for their deed, good or evil. That would mean that each man endures a unique duration in the fires of hell until their "time" is served whereupon God mercifully destroys their souls. In this way the justice AND mercy of God is in full view. Justice because they suffer a punishment commensurate with their evil deeds and mercy because God would never allow the person's torment to extend past what their evil deeds have lawfully earned them.

By eternal torment standards a poor aborigine who stole a loaf of bread to feed his hungry children and did not repent of this (what loving, caring parent would?) and did nothing else sinful in his life would still have earned eternal wrath in hellfire. Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? The ET'er argues, "Well, he didn't accept Jesus." How could he? He never even heard of Jesus! Where is the justice in condemning him to everlasting torment for one sinful act of loving his children?

Jesus said the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for "many". 10% of the entire human race being ransomed is not "many" by any rational definition of the word. It in fact is precious few. So rightfully Jesus should have said, the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for a chosen"few". That would have been more accurate. But it would also have laid wide open for all to see the totally anemic capacity of God to save mankind, while handing satan a victory against God of cosmic proportions. How ET'ers fail to comprehend this is just beyond my understanding.
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