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Old 01-01-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,326 posts, read 2,445,320 times
Reputation: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yep, he did not listen to Moses and the prophts. He was in Hades because of his unbelief. Abraham's advice concerning his brothers was to listen to Moses and the prophets.
It might be because of unbelief; but it seems that Abraham tells the rich man quite clearly that he lived a luxurious life, and that is why he was there. Apparently, if it was Moses and the prophets that he should have listened to, then the message he was supposed to learn from them was that he should have shared his goods with those in need. (ie communism)

So I don't see where it has to do with faith, just the obedience of the OT writings, to treat others as oneself would want to be treated..

But nowhere does it say that he was in hades/hell because of unbelief. Otherwise he would have said, "dear rich man, you are in hades/hell right now because you didn't believe the scriptures."

If anything, it seems that the implication is that faith is not enough. If you believe what you are reading, then you ought to be acting in Love towards your neighbor. Otherwise you risk hades/hell..

Just a thought..

Blessings,
brian

 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:22 AM
 
6,756 posts, read 2,098,481 times
Reputation: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
It might be because of unbelief; but it seems that Abraham tells the rich man quite clearly that he lived a luxurious life, and that is why he was there. Apparently, if it was Moses and the prophets that he should have listened to, then the message he was supposed to learn from them was that he should have shared his goods with those in need. (ie communism)

So I don't see where it has to do with faith, just the obedience of the OT writings, to treat others as oneself would want to be treated..

But nowhere does it say that he was in hades/hell because of unbelief. Otherwise he would have said, "dear rich man, you are in hades/hell right now because you didn't believe the scriptures."

If anything, it seems that the implication is that faith is not enough. If you believe what you are reading, then you ought to be acting in Love towards your neighbor. Otherwise you risk hades/hell..

Just a thought..
Love is the absolute power which rules; and it is the main message of Christ, but the workers are few.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:27 AM
 
12,232 posts, read 5,827,226 times
Reputation: 1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Many people misunderstand the nature of annihilation. Gnomes makes the common error of stating that annihilationists believe that all sinners regardless of their individual "record" will be destroyed at the same time. God, Jesus and Paul make it abundantly clear that each receives the just recompense for their deed, good or evil. That would mean that each man endures a unique duration in the fires of hell until their "time" is served whereupon God mercifully destroys their souls. In this way the justice AND mercy of God is in full view. Justice because they suffer a punishment commensurate with their evil deeds and mercy because God would never allow the person's torment to extend past what their evil deeds have lawfully earned them.

By eternal torment standards a poor aborigine who stole a loaf of bread to feed his hungry children and did not repent of this (what loving, caring parent would?) and did nothing else sinful in his life would still have earned eternal wrath in hellfire. Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? The ET'er argues, "Well, he didn't accept Jesus." How could he? He never even heard of Jesus! Where is the justice in condemning him to everlasting torment for one sinful act of loving his children?
No one is ever annihilated at any time. Everyone lives forever. There is no choice about that. The only choice is where we spend eternity.

And, no one is ever condemned because of their own personal sins. Everyone is condemned on the basis of Adams original sin. Not their own personal sins. One sin condemned the entire human race to eternal separation from God in hell. This is grace. Condemnation must precede salvation. God imputed Adam's original sin to the entire human race, putting everyone in one basket, and then at the right time in human history, God imputed everyones personal sins to Christ, and Jesus took the penalty for our personal sins.

Since Jesus was judged for everyones personal sins, God, being righteous, cannot judge those sins again. Instead, those who reject Christ stand on their own human righteousness - their deeds, to save them. And that is the basis for their judgment as shown in Revelation 20:11-15.



Quote:
Jesus said the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for "many". 10% of the entire human race being ransomed is not "many" by any rational definition of the word. It in fact is precious few. So rightfully Jesus should have said, the Son of Man came to give His life a ransom for a chosen"few". That would have been more accurate. But it would also have laid wide open for all to see the totally anemic capacity of God to save mankind, while handing satan a victory against God of cosmic proportions. How ET'ers fail to comprehend this is just beyond my understanding.
Jesus Christ died for the sins of the entire human race. Personal sin is therefore not the issue in salvation. The only issue in salvation is personal faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved. But only those who make a personal faith decision in Jesus Christ actually are saved. Everyone else remains under condemnation.

This is all very basic. And yet the majority of Christians seem not to understand it.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,326 posts, read 2,445,320 times
Reputation: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Love is the absolute power which rules; and it is the main message of Christ, but the workers are few.
The more I reflect on Love and 1 Cor. 13, the more I get convinced that God just forgives everyone... maybe that is the torment...?

Blessings!
Brian
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,878 posts, read 2,594,033 times
Reputation: 1498
Mike555 posted:
Quote:
And, no one is ever condemned because of their own personal sins. Everyone is condemned on the basis of Adams original sin. Not their own personal sins. One sin condemned the entire human race to eternal separation from God in hell. This is grace.
It is?

Well, as you may have read, the condemnation from Adam is being born here into the realm of death and suffering and sorrow. When Jesus descended into HELL - he came INTO THIS WORLD.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:46 AM
 
12,232 posts, read 5,827,226 times
Reputation: 1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Mike555 posted:


It is?

Well, as you may have read, the condemnation from Adam is being born here into the realm of death and suffering and sorrow. When Jesus descended into HELL - he came INTO THIS WORLD.
Readers may wish to refer back to post #63 and read the entire post.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,352 posts, read 10,848,853 times
Reputation: 4172
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Apparently, if it was Moses and the prophets that he should have listened to, then the message he was supposed to learn from them was that he should have shared his goods with those in need. (ie communism)
Do you really think Moses and the prophets preached communism?

You are saying things you don't even believe yourself. Why?

Quote:
So I don't see where it has to do with faith, just the obedience of the OT writings, to treat others as oneself would want to be treated..
That's right, you do not get it, and if you as long as you deny the obvious, you will not get it.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 11:54 AM
 
5,875 posts, read 4,411,744 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Everyone lives forever.
1 Timothy 6:16-17

Quote:
which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Quote:
Instead, those who reject Christ stand on their own human righteousness -
Again I ask, how can the hundred billion people who have ever lived who have never heard of Jesus be condemned to hell for eternity for something that was totally out of their control???
 
Old 01-01-2011, 12:05 PM
 
9,080 posts, read 4,453,092 times
Reputation: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
1 Timothy 6:16-17





Again I ask, how can the hundred billion people who have ever lived who have never heard of Jesus be condemned to hell for eternity for something that was totally out of their control???
Your not asking ... you're accusing God of being unfair.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 12:07 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 4,376,087 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear scgraham,
Thanks for your thoughts on the above. I still see some problems with it though.

Jesus never said the Rich man went to an everlasting hell. He just said he went to Hades. In the Old Testament of the Greek New Testament translated from Hebrew by Hebrew scholars into Greek, they translated Sheol as Hades. What is Sheol? The grave or tomb. So what is Hades? The grave or tomb.

Now then, that being the case, is there reallly a river flowing through any tomb that people were entombed in? Is there fire in tombs? Are people concsiously awake while in death? The bible says the dead know nothing.

Do tombs have two compartments? one with fire separated by a river and the other side of the tomb have Abraham accepting poor people into his bosom?

One last thing about Hades: You say it is everlasting hell. But the Bible shows that everyone gets out of Hades in Revelation, so how can it possibly be everlasting?

I hope your new year is filled with new and greater understanding of God's word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Jesus gives us more information about the everlasting torments of hell.

Matthew 25
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, according to Jesus, people are sent into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. Does the Word gives us more information about the duration of this everlasting fire?

Revelation 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Word makes it clear that the torments of hell fire is everlasting. The only way around this truth is to declare that the Bible has been mistranslated, in which case they might as well throw the entire Bible away because they are unbelievers, doubters and skeptics. They have a form of godliness only, but not in truth.

Dear scgraham,
I am curious why you think the chastening of the nations during the thousand years in Matthew 25:31-46 is concerning Sheol/Hades/ the grave or tomb? Those nations are not dead. Those nations are alive and that judgment is concerning how they treated Christ's brethren. That judgment is not death for them as it will be 1000 years later in Revelation 20.

Also, why do you think that the lake of fire in Revelation 20 is supposed to be the tomb i.e., sheol/Hades? Those who go to the lake of fire go there AFTER the 1000 year age which has not taken place yet. So how can the rich man even be in the lake of fire? He can't be because those in Hades later get out of Hades (which you say is everlasting) and they are then judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire called the second death.

Remember death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire? So all in Hades get out of Hades. So Hades can't be everlasting.

In other words, I think you have some explaining to do.
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