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Old 01-03-2011, 11:57 AM
 
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ditchlights... This is just some stuff on my path where I currently am. I know some folks are going to disagree on some points. But, this is just what I see. I'm sorry this is so long. I ended up going into a major ramble-a-thon again.:

What if life isn't about human beings making some choice...but rather God teaching human beings as a whole about love? Meaning every human life isn't some "choose heaven or hell" decision, but every human life ending up being a detailed picture of the contrast between love and non-love. What if we are all learning exactly what God wants us to learn? As a whole and as an individual?

Some who "deny God" all of their lives versus those who "spent their whole lives dedicated to God"... are STILL brother and sister and they are still God's children. All things happening, great and small will be used as a backdrop for truth to be displayed. This is a VERY short life and to think that some eternal destiny hinges on this tiny little short life, to me, is to NOT understand why we're here. (in my opinion.) Religion tells people this is IT! Make a CHOICE!

To me, that is ridiculous. We were subjected to this..

The diversity all around us is the perfect backdrop in which to display truth, in my opinion.

There are some who think they deny God, but they are, in REALITY... following God.

God is showing us TRUTH. That is what this life is about. How is He showing us truth? Through each and every life lived here on this earth. Through US. Everything that we go through, whether we follow Him (LOVE) or not follow Him (NON-LOVE) we are being shown something. It has nothing to do with your label. You are either following Him (LOVE) in any given situation, or you are not (non-love). And this pertains to EVERY human being. Everything trickles down and affects everyone else. Love and non-love affects everything. This is HUGE. When you think about what love is and what is not. From each person, to corporations, to leaders. Thoughts, actions...everything, everyday.... it all trickles down and has an affect.

I can understand your feelings about annihilation but only as they pertain to your current view.

GOD is the one who SUBJECTED US. He wouldn't have subjected us if HE didn't have a PERFECT reason for doing so.

And (not that you are saying this) but I don't think that this reason has anything to do with Him throwing us here like mice in a maze and seeing if we can find our way back and if we don't "oh well, I'll just end your existence altogether since you don't seem to know what the heck you're doing." or "Oh my! look at you, you've really got it all together, welcome out of the maze into a wonderful new existence!" No.


Every life is unique. And every life is valauble in that it will teach us ALL SOMETHING about the POWER of LOVE and the destructive nature of NON-LOVE. Our sufferings are creating something for us...
Our sufferings will not compare to the GLORY that IS TO BE revealed.
We are ALL part of that GLORY to be revealed. And if YOU, ditchlights were MISSING from that picture... it would NOT be a complete picture of Glory. You are ESSENTIAL. IRREPLACEABLE. We all are.


All this "make a choice.... for your eternal destiny" nonsense is just that.. NONSENSE, in my eyes.

Life is an extremely complex, amazingly detailed and THOROUGH exploration of the power of LOVE and the destructive nature of non-love. We are all in this thing together. We are all learning. And will keep ON learning.

continued...

Last edited by .sparrow.; 01-03-2011 at 11:58 AM.. Reason: Way too long, gotta break this up.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,568,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi ditchlights,

I believe in UR and I see the concept of annihilation in the scriptures. But what is it that is annihilated? It is the wicked nature out of each one of us that is annihilated. We are all wicked - and the wicked truly are destroyed when every last ounce of wickedness is destroyed out of us. Then we will have been made righteous.

Incidentally, that is what Jesus came to do - to make us righteous...

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


Just some things to think on when you are looking at the "annihilation" verses.
And indeed, what an incredible thought to meditate on to imagine humanity being completely free from the sin nature and the death realm, from temptation and from mortality. I don't think we contemplate that enough as a future reality. It's quite thrilling to consider that one day I will have a body that is not like this earthly body and that I will no longer be subjected to all the desires and temptations and sorrows that are built in to being mortal. Wow! That will be glorious indeed.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:59 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149
continued..
Truth. What is truth? GOD IS LOVE.
God is Love.
It sounds like such a simple little thing. But it is one of the most complex and profound things a human mind can ponder, in my opinion. And you can kind of tell those who haven't pondered it all that much because they'll just say "yeah, yeah.. God is love but He is ALSO JUSTICE and He can't look upon sin and He's not all flower hippie love...and..."
GOD IS LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13.
There is nothing MORE powerful than LOVE.
GOD is LOVE.

Life is unfolding as it should, in my eyes.
It makes sense to me.
When the full picture is complete and we look upon it... our knees will buckle from the magnificent picture of LOVE and what it TRULY MEANS becomes intimately acquainted with our being.
Every knee will bow... (not out of "oh my God... I'm so scared...please don't send me to hell..)
but out of :
"Oh.. MY GOD!! MY GOD!! THIS is WHO you are!!!!!!!! as pure love envelops your being. As the beautiful POWER of LOVE that has been woven through the story of OUR life here together is finally SHOWN and made APPARENT to each of us.)
Every knee will bow. It's a beautiful promise.
And I firmly believe there will not be a single soul who will wish to be "annihilated".


Some say not to listen to your heart. I say listen very intently to your heart. The mind is deceitful, the carnal mind is selfish. But the heart, when you feel compassion for someone in need and your heart feels squeezed and you get a lump in your throat and a selfless love overwhelms you for another human being, I feel that as being the Holy Spirit. That is what the Holy Spirit is to me. When pure selfless love overhwelms your being. Those are the real glimpses..

Ok, I'll shut up.
Again, this is just what I currently ponder and see from my perspective over here. This is what makes the most sense to me. This is the spot on my path that I've put up my tent and am camping out for awhile. My thoughts may evolve and change.. but this is it for now. If anyone wants to come hang out with me over here, I've got some sandwiches and stuff... and maybe some cookies, I don't know.

(lol)
peace,
sparrow
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:18 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi ditchlights,

I believe in UR and I see the concept of annihilation in the scriptures. But what is it that is annihilated? It is the wicked nature out of each one of us that is annihilated. We are all wicked - and the wicked truly are destroyed when every last ounce of wickedness is destroyed out of us. Then we will have been made righteous.

Incidentally, that is what Jesus came to do - to make us righteous...

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Just some things to think on when you are looking at the "annihilation" verses.


I absolutely agree with legoman's thoughts here.

And Heartsong, beautiful post, it IS an incredible thought to meditate on.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,108,802 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
continued..
Truth. What is truth? GOD IS LOVE.
God is Love.
It sounds like such a simple little thing. But it is one of the most complex and profound things a human mind can ponder, in my opinion. And you can kind of tell those who haven't pondered it all that much because they'll just say "yeah, yeah.. God is love but He is ALSO JUSTICE and He can't look upon sin and He's not all flower hippie love...and..."
GOD IS LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13.
There is nothing MORE powerful than LOVE.
GOD is LOVE.

Life is unfolding as it should, in my eyes.
It makes sense to me.
When the full picture is complete and we look upon it... our knees will buckle from the magnificent picture of LOVE and what it TRULY MEANS becomes intimately acquainted with our being.
Every knee will bow... (not out of "oh my God... I'm so scared...please don't send me to hell..)
but out of :
"Oh.. MY GOD!! MY GOD!! THIS is WHO you are!!!!!!!! as pure love envelops your being. As the beautiful POWER of LOVE that has been woven through the story of OUR life here together is finally SHOWN and made APPARENT to each of us.)
Every knee will bow. It's a beautiful promise.
And I firmly believe there will not be a single soul who will wish to be "annihilated".


Some say not to listen to your heart. I say listen very intently to your heart. The mind is deceitful, the carnal mind is selfish. But the heart, when you feel compassion for someone in need and your heart feels squeezed and you get a lump in your throat and a selfless love overwhelms you for another human being, I feel that as being the Holy Spirit. That is what the Holy Spirit is to me. When pure selfless love overhwelms your being. Those are the real glimpses..

Ok, I'll shut up.
Again, this is just what I currently ponder and see from my perspective over here. This is what makes the most sense to me. This is the spot on my path that I've put up my tent and am camping out for awhile. My thoughts may evolve and change.. but this is it for now. If anyone wants to come hang out with me over here, I've got some sandwiches and stuff... and maybe some cookies, I don't know.

(lol)
peace,
sparrow
I hear ya, sparrow. (Got any smores??)

What I'm focusing on right now is the 2 Adams: one who sinned and got us all cursed, and One who obeyed God and got us all justified.
I think there's a whole cuisine to explore there... and I think I need a hand!

God's not a failure. And He doesn't leave His creatures up to chance. Certainly, He breaks us and He heals us; He brings us down and He lifts us up. But the end is always for a Purpose, His Purpose. I think that Christendom in general doesn't see God has having any purpose, just waiting to see how many will "choose Him."

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,108,802 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi ditchlights,

I believe in UR and I see the concept of annihilation in the scriptures. But what is it that is annihilated? It is the wicked nature out of each one of us that is annihilated. We are all wicked - and the wicked truly are destroyed when every last ounce of wickedness is destroyed out of us. Then we will have been made righteous.

Incidentally, that is what Jesus came to do - to make us righteous...

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


Just some things to think on when you are looking at the "annihilation" verses.
Thanks, Legoman! I couldn't agree more!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,464 posts, read 7,555,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
This is a VERY short life and to think that some eternal destiny hinges on this tiny little short life, to me, is to NOT understand why we're here. (in my opinion.) Religion tells people this is IT! Make a CHOICE!

To me, that is ridiculous. We were subjected to this.....GOD is the one who SUBJECTED US. He wouldn't have subjected us if HE didn't have a PERFECT reason for doing so.
I read everything you wrote. I picked these parts because, while our opinions as a whole may differ, I agree 100% with the above part, and what you stated is what makes me believe that there is just more to it than what I was raised to believe in a church that preaches the ET doctrine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
And I firmly believe there will not be a single soul who will wish to be "annihilated".
I would feel the same way if someone could prove to me 100% that Hell truly does not exist. The brainwashing runs deep with this one......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
He doesn't leave His creatures up to chance. Certainly, He breaks us and He heals us; He brings us down and He lifts us up. But the end is always for a Purpose, His Purpose.
I want so badly to be able to believe these words. According to the ET'ers, the majority will not be lifted up in the end.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:53 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
Good Morning Katzpur! Thanx for the reply. When it comes to the concept of annihilation, I am perfectly OK with it. Sure, the concept of walking on the clouds and streets lined with gold is cool, but in the same sense that I do not believe that I am worthy of eternal damnation, why would I believe that I have earned the right to enter heaven? That's why I posed the question of annihilation. I consider it to be the only fair middle ground.
Hi ditchlights. I can understand your point of view, but if one person made it to heaven and their loved one was annihilated, what would happen within the heart of the person in heaven whose loved one has been wiped out of existence? Would that be "fair" for someone who "deserves" heaven to miss and grieve for their loved one forever? Love can't fail. Love never ends.

I lost my 15-year-old son, and one thing I remember conflicting in my heart was the love that I had for him was still there, but I didn't know what to "do with it." That's the only way I know how to explain it. I couldn't tell him or show him I loved him anymore, but the love was still in my heart and as deep as ever (and still is). The love continues on and on and on.....forever. (My son was a strong believer, so please, no one think I believe in UR because I thought my son could possibly go to hell. Someone hinted at that on here one time.)

So, if someone lost a son and they went to heaven but their son didn't, that love would be "truncated," if that makes sense. The love is there but it's like it has no meaning or value anymore because they would just love a memory. If the person ceases to exist but the love continues, there's a disconnect somehow. The love has nowhere to go. It implodes in your heart.

So, since God IS love, and He gives us the ability to love so deeply, I don't think He will allow that seed of love to be so deeply planted in our hearts, only to cut it off and leave the root there, never to flourish again. How could that be victory? How could that line up with 1 Corinitians 13 - "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." What would be the use of a mother's love for her son remaining throughout all eternity when he has ceased to exist? (Don't get me started on how someone could live for eternity in bliss thinking their loved one was on fire forever. God help us and forgive us for ever accusing you of that.)

sparrow, you have nothing on me in the rambling department.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Ditch...good to see you....a question...how could God annihilate something that which was not given?
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post

I will start by saying that I believe in Heaven, as well as Hell. There is a majority of humans in this world (past,present, and future) who live wonderful, decent lives, that according to the ET'ers, will never be saved. Would a LOVING GOD not have another plan for them, as annihilation is much more merciful than eternal damnation? To me, annihilation means nothingness, just like it was before birth. I am perfectly OK with that. I don't care if I make it to Heaven. I just don't want to burn in Hell. But the concept of a god that damns everyone except ET'ers to Hell just does not compute with me. It makes me not want to believe in such a cruel deity.


So, in closing, I ask this. Why would a LOVING God not have annihilation as the fate for those people who fall in between these extremes? I know the ET'ers will just paste more scripture. This is not what I want, as it just gets SO old, SO fast, time after time. I want there to be a certain level of common sense and personal feeling attatched to the posts.
Okay. Now that I got the ET part off of my chest, I'll try to answer why annihilation doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either. I attempted to address the problem of annihilation in posts # 29 and 37, but I thought I'd take it a little further, today. I do know there are scriptures that don't really support annihilation (Daniel 12:2,1 Cor. 15:26), although people who believe in annihilation say Daniel 12:2 just mean the punishment is eternal death.

Anyway, moving on. Like I said in post 29, I feel if evil people (not the evil, itself) were to be completely destroyed, it would be like the person said, "I did everything I wanted, I will be destroyed, and nobody can stop me." That's pretty powerful. That's a big shake of the fist at the Creator. I'm not sure how in the world love conquered all, if this is what happens to much of humanity.

Since much of scripture supports the idea of the destruction of evil, and not humanity itself, I would say that many humans may end up just like little kids again; no option to rule, reign, or end up at the level of others; first will be last, last will be first kind of thing. The Bible does talk of rewards and gifts and all kinds of things that are given to some and not others. So, works do pay off, if done out of true love. (I've heard of couple of people around me say that they will probably end up the heavenly janitor for eternity)

I guess I'm with sparrow, here. Evil can't win. It can't do all it wants and then end up "resting" forever. God always has a plan. All throughout the Bible he used evil to produce more good. There are many days I still don't understand it. I really don't. And I shout and I scream (I've turned into my dad) and I get pissed off and I melt into the ground. But, the theme of the Bible is, evil never wins in the end. Never. It doesn't have the power. It eats itself up, it shrivels into nothing, and somebody like the wicked king Nebuchadnezzar drops to the ground and admits he's not God. Daniel 3:28-Then Nebuchadnezzar said, "Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego!" That was probably the last thing people who knew him were expecting to hear! He didn't bow and grumble and curse God when he "woke up." This is what those who believe in ET or annihilation believe, though; when God forces everybody to bow, they will curse and grumble and defy Him in their hearts. But I believe if Nebuchadnezzar is any kind of example of the power of God, they will say, "Praise God!" Wow.

Maybe evil is allowed to wreak havoc because we need that mirror, and we need to see what becomes of humanity when we let ourselves worship the beast inside of us, when we worship ourselves and our thoughts. Nebuchadnezzar became that beast, literally. He wandered around in the fields eating grass.

I know in Revelation it says the "gates" are always open. Annihilation just means, to me, that evil won. It got the last laugh. Evil was so powerful that it outdid the greatest Love in the Universe. I just can't see God allowing this to happen.

That's why the annihilation of much of humanity makes no sense to me. Love lost. Love couldn't break through. But, the Bible says love conquers all. Does anybody know what that means? Besides sparrow?
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