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Old 01-03-2011, 04:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi ditchlights,

I believe in UR and I see the concept of annihilation in the scriptures. But what is it that is annihilated? It is the wicked nature out of each one of us that is annihilated. We are all wicked - and the wicked truly are destroyed when every last ounce of wickedness is destroyed out of us. Then we will have been made righteous.

Incidentally, that is what Jesus came to do - to make us righteous...

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Just some things to think on when you are looking at the "annihilation" verses.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


And IF Christ in you, the body dead because of sin; but the Spirit life because of righteousness.

The body will die regardless, because of sin. Everyone agrees with this, correct? But, at the same time,,,when we sinned, we died spiritually. Like Adam, like everyone. Does anyone disagree with this?

Only when we put Jesus Christ as the center of our lives, and Christ lives in us,,,do we have Life through His Righteousness. Born-Again.

So, pray tell me this. What happens to the body, and the spirit, when you DO NOT have life? When you DO NOT have Christ in YOU? Does the spirit then live, and is reborn? Created anew? The body? If the answer is no, then annihilation is the Truth.

If you can show me where a person who is dead both in body and spirit, without Christ, in scripture, where they are resurrected and given this second chance, or purified, or live in another 'age'? Anyone? Don't throw verses out about every knee bowing, because I will pull out Isa 66:23-24 out. And the words of Jesus, also.

Only those pertaining to this 'other' chance at life, without Christ at the Head first.
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,492 posts, read 7,567,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Hi ditchlights. I can understand your point of view, but if one person made it to heaven and their loved one was annihilated, what would happen within the heart of the person in heaven whose loved one has been wiped out of existence?
I read your whole post, but I just don't have the time at the current moment to answer in full. But, I will answer this one question real quickly. I believe the person that made it to Heaven would be thankful that God bestowed His infinite mercy upon their loved one by not sending them to eternal damnation of pain and suffering. My mother tells me she cries daily for my eternal soul, because she does not want to see me burn in hell. She actually believes that Christians in Heaven will be able to see those that are burning in hell, in all of their freakish agony. This is what I grew up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ditch...good to see you....a question...how could God annihilate something that which was not given?
Hi S, I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you elaborate just a little? God gave me life. Are you referring to something else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Okay. Now that I got the ET part off of my chest, I'll try to answer why annihilation doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either.
Good post HFN. I will reply later, as I have to take off soon. Take care EVERYONE. I will be back late tonight or in the morning. Thanx.
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Old 01-03-2011, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post



Hi S, I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you elaborate just a little? God gave me life. Are you referring to something else?
By your belief in Christ, God indeed gave you life. Before that, where were you? How can one have a "eternal, incorruptible" nature or body, per Paul, without belief? The spirit is given upon belief, and without belief, we are mere mortal men bound by the mortal laws of nature, with no "eternal" spirit or "life." We are simply "unto the sons of 'ish- man", and to the dust we go as beasts.....as a son of God, via the first awdam, to the last awdam, we are resurrected unto life.

Outside of that peculiar linage, there is no "spirit."

Peace to you.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,904,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
Good Morning Katzpur! Thanx for the reply. When it comes to the concept of annihilation, I am perfectly OK with it. Sure, the concept of walking on the clouds and streets lined with gold is cool, but in the same sense that I do not believe that I am worthy of eternal damnation, why would I believe that I have earned the right to enter heaven? That's why I posed the question of annihilation. I consider it to be the only fair middle ground.
What would it take for you to decide to annihilate one of your children, ditchlights? Don't you think that God is at least as kind and loving as you are? Trust me, if you believe what Jesus Christ told us -- that He was the only way to the Father -- you are definitely worthy to enter Heaven. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that you have to be perfect to go to Heaven. I hope you're not too awfully disappointed, though, if you're don't end up spending eternity walking on clouds and playing a harp. I believe it's going to be a whole lot more interesting than that!

Quote:
Eons passed before you were born and you never knew the difference, right?
Actually, that's not what I believe, but I would admit that most of the world's Christians see it that way. I believe we all existed pre-mortally and lived in the presence of God (just in spirit form as opposed to having a mortal body). He was the Father of our spirits and loved us very much, as He continues to do. I believe that He knows each and every one of us personally and that the last thing He ever intends to do is annihilate us at some point in the future.

Quote:
Most religious people believe they have met the criteria needed to enter Heaven. So, in the same respect, do non religious people think on a daily basis "Am I bad enough to recieve eternal damnation?" Of course not. They live their lives the best they can and are willing to accept whatever happens in the great hereafter. This is where the middle ground for me comes into play. Why would annihilation be considered a bad thing? For people like me who believe that both destinations actually do exist, annihilation is merciful.
I'm really glad that you have at least reconciled the situation in such a way that you can not live your life in fear of the future. That's a good thing.

Quote:
The reason why fundamental Christians despise UR, is because they feel that UR eliminates the concept of accountability. If UR was true, traditional Christians would no longer belong to a "members only" club. And if the concept of Hell did not exist, it would take away their most powerful recruitment tool. In a way, I can't blame them for feeling the way they do. What interests me, though, is that my belief of annihilation falls in line with neither camp. To an ETer, the concept of annihilation still eliminates accountability, and to a URer, the concept of annihilation is just as horrible as the concept of Hell.
I agree that neither UR nor ET, at least as taught in traditional Christianity, just don't make a heck of a lot of sense. But then I've never claimed to be a "traditional" Christian.

Quote:
Am I screwed up in the head?
LOL! No. I just think you're in for a very pleasant surprise.
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:28 PM
 
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hmmm,,,

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."- Jesus

"And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."- James

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."- Paul

Nope, nowhere are we commanded to be perfect in scripture. Strive to be perfect. Be clothed in Jesus' perfection. Nope, nowhere.
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
hmmm,,,

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."- Jesus

"And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."- James

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."- Paul

Nope, nowhere are we commanded to be perfect in scripture. Strive to be perfect. Be clothed in Jesus' perfection. Nope, nowhere.

Bible Matters--Be Perfect?
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Old 01-04-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Na, sorry. I don't follow Tentmaker.

Have you ever checked out these words? Blameless? Without spot or wrinkle? Without fault. Go and sin no more? Be perfect. Etc, etc. How about in the OT, like Job, Abram, etc. Men who were called blameless, in the sight of God.

Just wondering is all.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Hi ditchlights. I can understand your point of view, but if one person made it to heaven and their loved one was annihilated, what would happen within the heart of the person in heaven whose loved one has been wiped out of existence? Would that be "fair" for someone who "deserves" heaven to miss and grieve for their loved one forever? Love can't fail. Love never ends.

I lost my 15-year-old son, and one thing I remember conflicting in my heart was the love that I had for him was still there, but I didn't know what to "do with it." That's the only way I know how to explain it. I couldn't tell him or show him I loved him anymore, but the love was still in my heart and as deep as ever (and still is). The love continues on and on and on.....forever. (My son was a strong believer, so please, no one think I believe in UR because I thought my son could possibly go to hell. Someone hinted at that on here one time.)

So, if someone lost a son and they went to heaven but their son didn't, that love would be "truncated," if that makes sense. The love is there but it's like it has no meaning or value anymore because they would just love a memory. If the person ceases to exist but the love continues, there's a disconnect somehow. The love has nowhere to go. It implodes in your heart.

So, since God IS love, and He gives us the ability to love so deeply, I don't think He will allow that seed of love to be so deeply planted in our hearts, only to cut it off and leave the root there, never to flourish again. How could that be victory? How could that line up with 1 Corinitians 13 - "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." What would be the use of a mother's love for her son remaining throughout all eternity when he has ceased to exist? (Don't get me started on how someone could live for eternity in bliss thinking their loved one was on fire forever. God help us and forgive us for ever accusing you of that.)

sparrow, you have nothing on me in the rambling department.

Bright Hope, Thank you for sharing that. Your story always stands out to me. Losing a child, they say is about the worst pain you can go through in this world. That you have placed your absolute trust in God not only for your own son but for everyone else's speaks volumes on what the love of God did for you in your own heart and spirit. I know that your story has strengthened many, because when I think of it, it strengthens me.
God bless you, friend.
sparrow
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,610 posts, read 3,964,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
My mother tells me she cries daily for my eternal soul, because she does not want to see me burn in hell.
Ditch, it's too bad you got your mom so upset, but, to be honest, that is her problem, not yours.

What if she believed you were going to hell because you don't smoke a carton of cigarettes each week? Would you start smoking just to make her happy?
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:45 PM
 
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Billions of people have lived their lives never knowing that there was a way whereby they could be forgiven of their sins. Maybe they lived before Christ. Maybe they lived after Christ but in a part of the world Christianity had not yet spread. Maybe they lived in a modern-day Islamic state where Christianity was known but not accurately taught and not an option. The doctrine of Eternal Torment doesn't take any of these things into consideration. To people who believe it, there are no extenuating circumstances. It doesn't matter if a person never heard of Jesus Christ. If he didn't accept Jesus Christ, he's going to become part of God's eternal firewood.
Mike555 (and others) say that all mankind is without excuse for not knowing about Jesus, down through the ages and even in the deepest, darkest reaches of the world where the Word is incapable of being brought. I'm not mocking or ridiculing Mike; he is entitled to his beliefs. But I mention him because he has the best explanation of how this comes about in one of the current threads he originated and those who want to know more about this can research his posts. There are some excellent explanations. I can't fully comprehend them because they are pretty deep theological but I can tell they are thorough, logical from his POV, and well-expressed.
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