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Old 01-02-2011, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I'm with Glory B. I do believe there is supposed to be some kind of order and leadership, but all believers were given the Spirit. There wasn't ever supposed to be a top-down kind of pattern for the real church. The "leader" was supposed to be a shepherd; somebody who cared so much for the sheep that they would starve, be beaten, and endure all kinds of pain for the sheep under them (you know, like in the Bible) just so the sheep (weaker, uneducated, confused) could be free and healthy.
Then how do you explain what Paul said about these specific callings needing to exist "till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God..." It seems unbelievable to me that anyone could read this passage and think that Apostles were only supposed to exist at the beginning -- particularly when we can see what has happened without their guidance.

Last edited by Katzpur; 01-02-2011 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:54 PM
 
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I believe that the word "Apostle" was a special title given to the 12 who were under the tutelage of Jesus...chosen from the original 120 disciples (students.) The 12 were to symbolically represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Acts 1:15-26

In our days, "prophets" are they who are continually touched by the Spirit of God...Revelation 10:1-11

But then again, mine is just one of the many opinions on this board...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isaiah 29:11-13 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept (doctrine) of men. AKJV

May the LORD grant us "wisdom" to truly discern things that are spiritual!
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Then how do you explain what Paul said about this organizational structure needing to exist "until we all come into a unity of faith and knowledge..."?
I believe that some kind of order needed to exist. By that I mean we needed educated folks who believed the original scriptures. These men were supposed to spread out and help (guide) others in villages and cities around the world into the knowledge of the TRUTH (which they almost never did). They were never supposed to start specialized schools full of their own thoughts and beliefs to muddy up the simplest of all messages.

I Timothy 4:10-----Jesus is the Savior of all (pas) men, especially of those who believe.


We all know what happened. 2000 years later we've had wars, crusades, politics, hells, mythology, men with visions who don't know what they were talking about, women with visions who don't know what they were talking about, divisions, cold hearts, cold souls, anger, frustrations, depression, fatigue, and the list goes on and on and on. I believe this is a direct result of men who decided what the masses were supposed to believe, instead of letting the Spirit of Christ enter the hearts of wounded souls. To top it off, we got a horrible translation of the original scriptures, which killed off a lot of hope and made men, women, and children alike empty and tired when all was said and done.

Fruits of the Spirit (and the church)----->>>>>Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, humility.

It didn't happen.

I don't think it was supposed to happen.

(so no man (nor organized system) could boast--not Jew, not Gentile)
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
I believe that the word "Apostle" was a special title given to the 12 who were under the tutelage of Jesus...chosen from the original 120 disciples (students.)
After Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles.

Quote:
The 12 were to symbolically represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Acts 1:15-26
So why would it not be important for them to continue to exist today? The apostles were the ones who, after Christ's ascent into Heaven, were given the responsibility for maintaining the purity of the doctrines He taught. As long as they were leading the Church, the people could look to them for the correct interpretation of doctrine and not be "carried about with every wind of doctrine." Look at the differences of opinion among the Christians who post here every day. Suppose that each time an apostle had died, a new one was appointed and that Jesus Christ had personally revealed to the remaining eleven who it should be. Just think how it would be today if that had continued to happen throughout the nearly 2000 years since Christ's death. Imagine how much more united Christians would be today than they are.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I believe that some kind of order needed to exist. By that I mean we needed educated folks who believed the original scriptures.
What kind of order are you thinking of? Why wouldn't the order Jesus established be the most perfect one imaginable? He personally chose twelve Apostles and, as you pointed out, they would form the foundation of the Church He intended to establish. These twelve men, by the way, were not (with the exception of a couple of them) educated. They were not Rabbis and had not attended divinity schools or theological seminaries. It was primarily the "educated folk" who messed things up. During the first several centuries after Christ's death, the people calling the shots were educated in Greek philosophy. It was a melding of Greek philosophical thought that formulated the Nicene Creed, for instance. Had there been a council of twelve apostles, each one called and ordained by others who already held the authority personally given to them by Jesus Christ, the controversies which divided the Church would never have become the problem they did.

Quote:
These men were supposed to spread out and help (guide) others in villages and cities around the world into the knowledge of the TRUTH (which they almost never did). They were never supposed to start specialized schools full of their own thoughts and beliefs to muddy up the simplest of all messages.
So are you referring to the apostles or to those who followed them in the centuries after Christ?

Quote:
We all know what happened. 2000 years later we've had wars, crusades, politics, hells, mythology, men with visions who don't know what they were talking about, women with visions who don't know what they were talking about, divisions, cold hearts, cold souls, anger, frustrations, depression, fatigue, and the list goes on and on and on. I believe this is a direct result of men who decided what the masses were supposed to believe, instead of letting the Spirit of Christ enter the hearts of wounded souls.
Right! But the reason men were left to decide on their own what the masses were supposed to believe is that communication between Christ and His Church ceased after his Apostles were martyred. They held authority conferred upon them personally by Jesus Christ. They alone held the right to confer that authority upon those who would replace them. Had the line of apostolic authority never ceased the exist, the foundation laid by Jesus Christ would not have crumbled and His Church would not have been left without His guidance. Granted, the Holy Ghost does speak to us individually to witness to us the truth of what we are taught, but with a unified body of twelve, acting in the role Christ had set them apart to fulfill, we would not be in the mess we're in today.

Quote:
Fruits of the Spirit (and the church)----->>>>>Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, humility.

It didn't happen.

I don't think it was supposed to happen.

(so no man (nor organized system) could boast--not Jew, not Gentile)
It wasn't supposed to happen? Wow! I really can't agree with that. It's only because of the tremendous disparity of belief between the various denominations of Christianity today that anyone even feels the need to boast. If we were all united in our faith and knowledge of Christ, that need would not exist.

Last edited by Katzpur; 01-02-2011 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
After Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles.

So why would it not be important for them to continue to exist today? The apostles were the ones who, after Christ's ascent into Heaven, were given the responsibility for maintaining the purity of the doctrines He taught. As long as they were leading the Church, the people could look to them for the correct interpretation of doctrine and not be "carried about with every wind of doctrine." Look at the differences of opinion among the Christians who post here every day. Suppose that each time an apostle had died, a new one was appointed and that Jesus Christ had personally revealed to the remaining eleven who it should be. Just think how it would be today if that had continued to happen throughout the nearly 2000 years since Christ's death. Imagine how much more united Christians would be today than they are.
The answer to our questions will be shown in God's time Kat...when the puzzle pieces finally fitted, reveals the whole picture.

In the interim...presumptions abound.

Loving God and loving my neighbor as I love myself, is the way to live ones life...The Key! (Rev. 3:7-13)

Blessings...
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
The answer to our questions will be shown in God's time Kat...when the puzzle pieces finally fitted, reveals the whole picture.

In the interim...presumptions abound.

Loving God and loving my neighbor as I love myself, is the way to live ones life...The Key! (Rev. 3:7-13)

Blessings...
You are right, as usual, ans!
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You are right, as usual, ans!

I'm with ans, Katzpur. I know you love your church, and I'm not trying to persuade you to do otherwise. I'm sure you were surprised to see me write that all of this was supposed to happen, but if it happened to the Jews, it was supposed to happen to the Gentiles, and it has. All according to plan.

Noone will boast.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Thanks to everyone who has chimed in. It is interesting to read the various points of view.

I'm of the opinion that there is only one foundation (Jesus Christ) and the twelve apostles that he chose. As for Paul, I believe he was the choice of the risen Christ to fulfill the prophecy that no other foundation can be laid save that of Jesus Christ (not even by the casting of lots as the others did to replace Judas).

I can't even imagine taking any title upon myself and it strikes me as odd that so many men have and still do so. For example, the Pope "the vicar of Christ on earth" -- wow! I don't believe carnal men can put the church/temple of God together.

As for the guy I originally was talking about, he used to just call himself a Pastor way back in the days when I went to the church which at that time was an AOG. But he withdrew from the AOG and proclaimed his Apostleship and renamed his church THE ROCK. They then had their members put signs in their front yards that stated: "I'm building my house on THE ROCK".

I dragged my husband there a few times (before it had become THE ROCK and the place made him extremely uncomfortable because they always spoke in tongues throughout the service and during worship (the whole congregation all at once) and my husband was raised Methodist and just thought it was all a bunch of B.S.


I would note, that unless they have changed their tune, they used to spend a great deal of time in their LONG services boasting about how much more spiritual their church was than other churches. I suppose that is why some of their members would say things like "The Baptists do not have the Holy Spirit".

I used to find all this stuff confusing until I finally understood that the churches (plural) were Mystery Babylon with all the different names on "her forehead".
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post



I used to find all this stuff confusing until I finally understood that the churches (plural) were Mystery Babylon with all the different names on "her forehead".
I have known wonderful people who are church goers...and I respect the way they pay homage to God, but I tend to agree that the "Religious System" could very well be the deceptive Babylon that would try and draw people away from the truth.
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