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Old 01-04-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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I read that Moses was leading the Jews out of Egypt around 1200 BC, the same time the volcano at Santorini exploded.

A lot of the legends in the Book of Exodus, like the pillar of fire or a tidal wave trapping the Egyptian chariots, could be based on the what happened after the explosion.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:43 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
I read that Moses was leading the Jews out of Egypt around 1200 BC, the same time the volcano at Santorini exploded.

A lot of the legends in the Book of Exodus, like the pillar of fire or a tidal wave trapping the Egyptian chariots, could be based on the what happened after the explosion.
Quite possible. I have to conclude that something MAY have happened, but the details are greatly exaggerated and slanted. What may have been a regional disaster (Santorini's massive explosion) may have been the basis for those "plagues."
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Quite possible. I have to conclude that something MAY have happened, but the details are greatly exaggerated and slanted. What may have been a regional disaster (Santorini's massive explosion) may have been the basis for those "plagues."
Yeah, the article I read went into a good deal of detail. It said the ashes from the Santorini explosion could have spread south to Egypt, killing some of the crops, leading to a plague of insects, and then leading to an unusual increase in the number of frogs.

People in those days saw god being active in everyday history. The Iliad tells about the Trojan War in the context of a marital tussle between Zeus, who backed the Trojans, and his wife Minerva, who supported the Greeks.

Of course, many people still see history in that way. Remember, when Julia Ward Howe saw troops drilling early in the Civil War, she wrote "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the lord".
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Well, it should be no surprise that the whole Bible is told from a Hebrew
standpoint, as if that is a bad thing.




Well, why should that be a bad thing? After all, God told Abraham before
they went into Egypt that they'd be held prisoner there and that after 400
some years He'd rescue them. You can't fault Him for doing what He
promised to Abraham.


Genesis 15:13-14 CLV And saying is He to Abram, "Knowing, yea, knowing
are you that a sojourner is your seed to become in a land not theirs, and
they are to serve them. Yet evil shall they do to them and humiliate them
four hundred years. (14) Moreover, also, the nation which they are
serving will I adjudicate. And afterward they are to fare forth hither with
great goods.

Exodus 12:40-41 CLV Now the dwelling of the sons of Israel and their
fathers who dwelt in the land of Canaan and in the land of Egypt was four
hundred thirty years. (41) And it came to be at the end of four hundred
thirty years--and it came to be on this very day--that all the host of
Yahweh went forth from the land of Egypt.




This is getting interesting. Do you have the exact date when they exited
Egypt? And do you have an exact date as to when Exodus was written?
Maybe you found a copy of Exodus with a copyright notice on it of 1500
B.C.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
How many time has it been proven over and over and over again that the Jews (not Hebrews or Israelites) did NOT write down their religious history until some time past the Babylonian captivity? This would be almost 1,200 years AFTER the alleged events found in the Book of Exodus. Perhaps there were oral stories passed down and this would be plausible, but we all know how spoken stories can grow magical over a long period of time. There is no indication that while all these things were going on Moses or any scribe was busy writing down every detail no matter what has been assumed by the church over the centuries.
It hasn't been proven once.

Quote:
If you want to see what I mean, an example can be found in the book of Genesis. The details found in the book of Genesis starts with the creation and ends with the death of Joseph. The death of Joseph supposedly happened some 1,500 years BEFORE Israel had a king. Now if the writer of Genesis was Moses or someone in the older eras of Israelite history, why is it that in Genesis 39 we read about "kings of Israel?" What this tells us is that the writer had to be writing during the time of Israel's kings or some time after and this would be some 1,500 years later.
I don't know what bible you are reading but I can't find "kings of Israel" in Genesis 39.

Quote:
This is what I am referring to. The Jews, out of necessity, sat down and wrote their religious history down, most of which was long after the fact. In that huge gap, they could tell it with all the fanciful details. We read incredulous stories about David and Jonathan defeating entire Philistine armies and of David's mighty men sounding invincible. We read about angels wiping out 85,000 Assyrian soldiers and people walking across Seas on dry land. Could all these stories be based on SOME truth? Quite possible. Does it sound like fanciful details were added in? VERY possible.
They didn't wait until "long after the fact." They kept accurate records and then put the records together. Who says they waited till after the Babylonian captivity to all of a sudden write "Genesis"?
I suppose you don't believe Jesus walked on water. Why can't the God who created the world and all that is in it also be able to control all the forces of nature? Why can't powerful angels wipe out so many people? Just because it sounds strange to us doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-04-2011 at 03:04 PM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:04 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post


I don't know what bible you are reading but I can't find "kings of Israel" in Genesis 39.
check Genesis 36:31. I was writing that off the top of my head earlier.



Quote:
They didn't wait until "long after the fact." The kept accurate records and then put the records together. Who says they waited till after the Babylonian captivity to all of a sudden write "Genesis"?
How do you know they kept accurate records as opposed to later compiling their oral traditions which over time had been flavored with fanciful details? Do you really believe (well I guess you do) that god killed 75,000 Israelites because David numbered his army??? Doesn't this sound like a made up story (probably a plague broke out) to explain what they did not understand. You are giving the Jews too much of the benefit of the doubt which I am sure you would not give to other people writing such fanciful details about their own history. By the way, please scour all your resources and tell me if you can find one credible scholar who will say that the Israelites wrote down their history in real time. See if you won't find that the overwhelming majority of scholars will admit the stories/accounts were written some time during or after the Babylonian captivity.
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
check Genesis 36:31. I was writing that off the top of my head earlier.
The first king of Israel was Saul who was Looooong before the babylonian captivity.





Quote:
How do you know they kept accurate records as opposed to later compiling their oral traditions which over time had been flavored with fanciful details? Do you really believe (well I guess you do) that god killed 75,000 Israelites because David numbered his army???
Of course He did. Why is that so hard to believe?


Quote:
Doesn't this sound like a made up story (probably a plague broke out) to explain what they did not understand.
It was done by angels or messengers of Yahweh in response to David numbering. It sounds perfectly logical to me.

Quote:
You are giving the Jews too much of the benefit of the doubt which I am sure you would not give to other people writing such fanciful details about their own history. By the way, please scour all your resources and tell me if you can find one credible scholar who will say that the Israelites wrote down their history in real time. See if you won't find that the overwhelming majority of scholars will admit the stories/accounts were written some time during or after the Babylonian captivity.
Throughout the old testament the kings of Israel were always looking for this scroll or that scroll of an historical account. There is no proof they all of a sudden wrote down their history after the babylonian captivity.

By the way, use a good bible search program and search "scribe." They were a hot item in the O.T.

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-04-2011 at 03:31 PM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The first king of Israel was Saul who was Looooong before the babylonian captivity.
Gosh Eusebius; I think you just intentionally remain stubborn just to be facetious. Of course I know Saul was king well before the captivity. That was NOT the point. The point is that whoever wrote Genesis was writing from a point in time well AFTER the fact. In other words, the writer had the advantage of writing/collecting the stories AFTER the details were already passed.

Now, even if the writer was writing in the days of Saul, he would have still be writing 1,000 years (and more )AFTER some of the details mentioned in Genesis. Again, this allows enough time to add "color" to the stories and even make up a few along the way.


Quote:
Of course He did. Why is that so hard to believe?
Actually it is easy to disbelieve because these accounts are ONLY found in the Bible and are clearly the view of the writer as they are SUBJECTIVE accounts. If a building falls on 100 people. I can (a) claim god did it (b) claim the devil did it or (c) assume there was some technical failure or even the work of a bomb. Which you think is more likely? How did the writer KNOW for sure god had anything to do with the deaths of 75,000 Israelites without visible proof? This is the writers IDEA of what he THOUGHT happened in that world of yesteryear where EVERYTHING, whether good or bad (generally the bad) was attributed to an angry god out there somewhere.


Quote:
It was done by angels or messengers of Yahweh in response to David numbering. It sounds perfectly logical to me.
Well there is your problem. The illogical is logical to you. How does a god get angry with a people for the actions of their king and kills 75,000 people because of their king and the king gets away with his life intact? Explain the sense in all of this WITHOUT having to get creative and using sidesteps.


Quote:
Throughout the old testament the kings of Israel were always looking for this scroll or that scroll of an historical account. There is no proof they all of a sudden wrote down their history after the babylonian captivity.
Where did you find that and the scroll I know of (with Josiah) was of the Law not Genesis to Malachi.
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The first king of Israel was Saul who was Looooong before the babylonian captivity.
Quote:
Gosh Eusebius; I think you just intentionally remain stubborn just to be facetious. Of course I know Saul was king well before the captivity. That was NOT the point. The point is that whoever wrote Genesis was writing from a point in time well AFTER the fact. In other words, the writer had the advantage of writing/collecting the stories AFTER the details were already passed.
Not stubborn, just convinced. Did you do a search on "scribe" like I asked you to? King Saul and others had scribes long long long before Israel was taken captive in Babylon. That is just crazy to think the Jews didn't write anything down about their history until the Babylon captivity.

Do you think Exodus happened after the babylonian captivity?
God had Moses write down what He told him:
Exo 17:14 "Then Yahweh said to Moses: Write this as a reminder in a scroll, and put it in the ears of Joshua that I shall wipe out, yea wipe out the remembrance of Amalek from under the heavens."

The priests were told to WRITE ON A SCROLL:
Num 5:23 The priest will write these imprecations on a scroll, and he will wipe them out with the waters of bitterness.

Was Numbers written after the Babylonian captivity? Did that priest come back to life after the Babylonian captivity?

Quote:
Insane wrote:
Now, even if the writer was writing in the days of Saul, he would have still be writing 1,000 years (and more )AFTER some of the details mentioned in Genesis. Again, this allows enough time to add "color" to the stories and even make up a few along the way.
Not proven, just said by you. It could just be you don't understand what is written.



Quote:
Eusebius wrote about God killing the 70,000 men of Israel:
Of course He did. Why is that so hard to believe?
Quote:
Insane replied:
Actually it is easy to disbelieve because these accounts are ONLY found in the Bible and are clearly the view of the writer as they are SUBJECTIVE accounts.
And just why would someone in China write about God killing 70,000 men of Israel? Or why would other historians of other countries write about what was happening inside Israel in that day? Lack of writing by other countries does not prove lack of truth.

Quote:
Insane continues:
If a building falls on 100 people. I can (a) claim god did it (b) claim the devil did it or (c) assume there was some technical failure or even the work of a bomb. Which you think is more likely? How did the writer KNOW for sure god had anything to do with the deaths of 75,000 Israelites without visible proof? This is the writers IDEA of what he THOUGHT happened in that world of yesteryear where EVERYTHING, whether good or bad (generally the bad) was attributed to an angry god out there somewhere.
By the way, it was only 70,000 men, not 75,000. There must have been something those 70,000 men were doing improperly. So God had Satan have David number Israel. How did David know God had something to do with the killing of the 70,000 men? Because David's prophet told him and it happened just as he said it would happen. By the way, both a, b, and c could all be correct at the same time.



Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
It was done by angels or messengers of Yahweh in response to David numbering. It sounds perfectly logical to me.
Quote:
Insane replied:
Well there is your problem. The illogical is logical to you. How does a god get angry with a people for the actions of their king and kills 75,000 people because of their king and the king gets away with his life intact? Explain the sense in all of this WITHOUT having to get creative and using sidesteps.
Actually that which is logical is logical to me. God and Israel made a covenant to do all the law. It is possible those 70,000 (not 75,000) men were breaking that law. So God used David's numbering Israel to get at those 70,000 men.
Why does it matter to you anyway as if you are ascribing impropriety to God? God is going to bring those 70,000 men back to life and give them immortality and salvation.



Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
Throughout the old testament the kings of Israel were always looking for this scroll or that scroll of an historical account. There is no proof they all of a sudden wrote down their history after the babylonian captivity.
Quote:
Insane replied:
Where did you find that and the scroll I know of (with Josiah) was of the Law not Genesis to Malachi.
The same place you found the Old Testament was written after the Babylon captivity.

Jos 8:31 as Moses, servant of Yahweh, commanded the sons of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses--an altar of whole stones, over which he has not waved iron--and they cause to go up upon it burnt-offerings to Yahweh, and sacrifice peace-offerings;"

The leader, Joshua, at that time of Israel, just after Moses died, told Israel, many years prior to the Babylonian captivity, that there was a book of the law of Moses. Yet you believe all that was written after the Babylonian captivity. You've been deluded by these people who have an axe to grind against God and the Bible.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Not stubborn, just convinced. Did you do a search on "scribe" like I asked you to? King Saul and others had scribes long long long before Israel was taken captive in Babylon. That is just crazy to think the Jews didn't write anything down about their history until the Babylon captivity.

Do you think Exodus happened after the babylonian captivity?
God had Moses write down what He told him:
Exo 17:14 "Then Yahweh said to Moses: Write this as a reminder in a scroll, and put it in the ears of Joshua that I shall wipe out, yea wipe out the remembrance of Amalek from under the heavens."

The priests were told to WRITE ON A SCROLL:
Num 5:23 The priest will write these imprecations on a scroll, and he will wipe them out with the waters of bitterness.

Was Numbers written after the Babylonian captivity? Did that priest come back to life after the Babylonian captivity?



Not proven, just said by you. It could just be you don't understand what is written.







And just why would someone in China write about God killing 70,000 men of Israel? Or why would other historians of other countries write about what was happening inside Israel in that day? Lack of writing by other countries does not prove lack of truth.



By the way, it was only 70,000 men, not 75,000. There must have been something those 70,000 men were doing improperly. So God had Satan have David number Israel. How did David know God had something to do with the killing of the 70,000 men? Because David's prophet told him and it happened just as he said it would happen. By the way, both a, b, and c could all be correct at the same time.







Actually that which is logical is logical to me. God and Israel made a covenant to do all the law. It is possible those 70,000 (not 75,000) men were breaking that law. So God used David's numbering Israel to get at those 70,000 men.
Why does it matter to you anyway as if you are ascribing impropriety to God? God is going to bring those 70,000 men back to life and give them immortality and salvation.







The same place you found the Old Testament was written after the Babylon captivity.

Jos 8:31 as Moses, servant of Yahweh, commanded the sons of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses--an altar of whole stones, over which he has not waved iron--and they cause to go up upon it burnt-offerings to Yahweh, and sacrifice peace-offerings;"

The leader, Joshua, at that time of Israel, just after Moses died, told Israel, many years prior to the Babylonian captivity, that there was a book of the law of Moses. Yet you believe all that was written after the Babylonian captivity. You've been deluded by these people who have an axe to grind against God and the Bible.
You're really losing sight of reality if you have not already Eusebius. I am NOT saying that the Israelites did not have oral traditions and perhaps even written history here and there. I am saying that it was after the Babylonian captivity they found the NEED to write out their ENTIRE scriptures which included their history and since (like other people of the time) they viewed their presence in the world as some divine calling, they added a healthy heaping of religious fantasy to their history. Of course they wrote out their LAWS to govern them, but you should not confuse their "Do's and don'ts" (the laws) with the rest of the Old Testament. I mean, really??? Who was sitting up in heaven observing god holding a conversation with a lying spirit so he could commission him to go and lie to Ahab? The writer doesn't tell us, but he speaks as if he was there, right? Do you believe he was or do you take some simplistic approach that "well, god must have told him about the conversation!"

Ok, let me reconstruct something for you. Here the Jews are in Babylonian captivity. They are disillusioned. Why??? They lived in an ancient world where it people believed their gods went to war with them. The customary understanding was that if one nation defeated another, it stood to reason that the victorious nation had a god who was more powerful than the god(s) of the defeated nation. This is why there was so much of big to do about Israel's god defeating the gods of Egypt in the book of Exodus.

Well, what were the Jews to believe when they found themselves "by the rivers of Babylon" mourning over their loss of Zion? (Psalm 135) This no doubt led to tough questions. Was YWH inferior to Babylon's gods? Wasn't their defeat and exile evidence that YWH was no match for the mighty Babylonian god, Marduk? The story could have ended there and the Jews could have just slipped away quietly into history, but something amazing happened. Their religious leaders came up with the idea that their defeat was NOT a result of Yahweh's weakness; rather, it was because he ALLOWED it to happen to them because of their iniquities against him. It was out of THIS frame of mind the Jews sat down and found the need to write down their history. The new generation of Jews would learn not to repeat the mistakes of their ancestors and a new Jew would emerge who would be zealous for the law because it was believed they lost it all primarily because they failed to obey the law.

Against this backdrop, they told their story and it was to serve as a lesson to the new generation of Jews and in essence, a new Judaism was born where Rabbis became prominent and the law the primary focus. so how do you tell this story?

1. Our great ancestor was called out by our great god.

2. Our ancestor was promised to be father to a special people

3. Our ancestor gave birth to a promised child who would father the Israelite people.

4. Our people were formed in the bowels of slavery but were delivered by our amazing god who swore them to a covenant to serve him and him only

5. Our people failed to live up to their end of the bargain and was thus punished for it.

In between those 5 things are the stories that fill up the Old Testament and each of them comes with their fair share of miracles and other colorful details.

Now, as for you comment about II Samuel 24/1 Chronicles 21, I'm not even going to touch that one as it makes not one lick of sense to me not to mention one passage saying Satan pushed David to number the people while the other says it was god.
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Old 01-04-2011, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Well, what were the Jews to believe when they found themselves "by the rivers of Babylon" mourning over their loss of Zion? (Psalm 135) This no doubt led to tough questions. Was YWH inferior to Babylon's gods? Wasn't their defeat and exile evidence that YWH was no match for the mighty Babylonian god, Marduk? The story could have ended there and the Jews could have just slipped away quietly into history, but something amazing happened. Their religious leaders came up with the idea that their defeat was NOT a result of Yahweh's weakness; rather, it was because he ALLOWED it to happen to them because of their iniquities against him. It was out of THIS frame of mind the Jews sat down and found the need to write down their history. The new generation of Jews would learn not to repeat the mistakes of their ancestors and a new Jew would emerge who would be zealous for the law because it was believed they lost it all primarily because they failed to obey the law.

Against this backdrop, they told their story and it was to serve as a lesson to the new generation of Jews and in essence, a new Judaism was born where Rabbis became prominent and the law the primary focus. so how do you tell this story?

1. Our great ancestor was called out by our great god.

2. Our ancestor was promised to be father to a special people

3. Our ancestor gave birth to a promised child who would father the Israelite people.

4. Our people were formed in the bowels of slavery but were delivered by our amazing god who swore them to a covenant to serve him and him only

5. Our people failed to live up to their end of the bargain and was thus punished for it.

In between those 5 things are the stories that fill up the Old Testament and each of them comes with their fair share of miracles and other colorful details.
And this is when I became an atheist--when I saw the possibility of this. Sure, there's not 100 percent concrete evidence for that being true, but...c'mon...look at how LIKELY it is.

Like you said, Insane, people fabricate glorious national myths all the time. I'm not the type of atheist who's shut off himself completely to the idea of a Jewish god or even a Christian god existing...but this theory of ancient Hebrew propaganda seems more believable. The OT is so obviously concered with Jews and only Jews.
I had, even as a child, always wondered why Jesus was so elusive in the front half of the Bible...
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