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Old 01-05-2011, 02:39 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
But Insane, what if you are wrong and don't even know it? Have you read Plato's Timaeus? How do you know what you have read is truly a good rendition of the translation? For instance, most English versions of the Greek Timaeus are horrible. Unless one knows Greek one would never know. When properly translated it all makes sense. One has to be at the mercy of the translators if one is uneducated. The same goes for the Bible. (Not that I am saying you are uneducated!)

I think what happened to you is that you started off on the right foot with Christianity and you let the itty bitty things get the best of you regarding the translation. I could be wrong but don't think so from what I've read what you've written. I think you then sought out people who you would agree with who are against the literal/historical understanding of the Bible.

Maybe you didn't even start out right? Did you at one time really really really believe God that Christ died for your sins? Did you just say: O.K. God, if you say it is so I trust you that you are telling me the truth even if I can't understand how it is so.?
Let's not go there, Eusebius. I absolutely hate it when Christians try to analyze me and make silly assumptions (Ex: "oh he wasn't saved in the first place." "He let the devil deceive him with all that fancy, smancy Science thing!" "He didn't understand the bible correctly." "He let doubt [READ: questioning] get in the way," etc.) I mean, REALLY, let's not go there. For some reason it is beyond the comprehension of Christians that there are breathing human beings (and LOTS of them) who come to see Christianity or any and all religion as attempts to understand the unknowable and/or a comfort from fear of the unknown (generally death.) I found the whole thing wanting and want no part of it. Simple as that. No analyzing needed.

That being said, there is nothing you can say that will make a fantasy magically become a reality. In fact, there are some Christians here who do NOT take a literal approach to the Bible as you do. Are they less Christian than you? They might even believe some of the things I do. Does that make them less godly than you?

I am just as confident as you are that I am right in my belief that the Bible is the work of man, flawed and with misguided content here and there. It is the religious story of ONE people that just happened to be lucky enough to make it down to us with a few lucky breaks here and there.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:30 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,491,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Let's not go there, Eusebius. I absolutely hate it when Christians try to analyze me and make silly assumptions (Ex: "oh he wasn't saved in the first place." "He let the devil deceive him with all that fancy, smancy Science thing!" "He didn't understand the bible correctly." "He let doubt [READ: questioning] get in the way," etc.) I mean, REALLY, let's not go there. For some reason it is beyond the comprehension of Christians that there are breathing human beings (and LOTS of them) who come to see Christianity or any and all religion as attempts to understand the unknowable and/or a comfort from fear of the unknown (generally death.) I found the whole thing wanting and want no part of it. Simple as that. No analyzing needed.
I was just curious since not one thing you have brought up so far has been proven to be correct. So I must assume you just don't care if you are wrong to believe the way you do or you care but are just grasping as whatever straws you can to help you deal with your deception.

Quote:
That being said, there is nothing you can say that will make a fantasy magically become a reality. In fact, there are some Christians here who do NOT take a literal approach to the Bible as you do. Are they less Christian than you? They might even believe some of the things I do. Does that make them less godly than you?
I think the one who fell down the rabbit's hole is you, living in a world you have constructed according to your own reality or unreality. Since this thread is about the Biblical, historical account of an actual exodus out of Egypt, and since you have not backed up even one of your statements with PROOF, I would have to say it is you who lives the fantasy. You are like the guy who mouthed off to a prize fighter in the street and got the bloody pulp beat out of you and left you lying by the curb and yet still said: "I've won!" as he walks away.


Quote:
I am just as confident as you are that I am right in my belief that the Bible is the work of man, flawed and with misguided content here and there. It is the religious story of ONE people that just happened to be lucky enough to make it down to us with a few lucky breaks here and there.
You have alot of faith in no proof you are right!
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I was just curious since not one thing you have brought up so far has been proven to be correct. So I must assume you just don't care if you are wrong to believe the way you do or you care but are just grasping as whatever straws you can to help you deal with your deception.



I think the one who fell down the rabbit's hole is you, living in a world you have constructed according to your own reality or unreality. Since this thread is about the Biblical, historical account of an actual exodus out of Egypt, and since you have not backed up even one of your statements with PROOF, I would have to say it is you who lives the fantasy. You are like the guy who mouthed off to a prize fighter in the street and got the bloody pulp beat out of you and left you lying by the curb and yet still said: "I've won!" as he walks away.




You have alot of faith in no proof you are right!
Ok. let me see if I get this right. You believe in a book that talk about talking snakes and donkeys, the sun standing still, dead people coming back to life, angels killing off soldiers, gods expressing fear that man might become like them, divine orders to extrerminate other people and other incredulous nonsense and *I* live in some kind of fantasy???

The things I mentioned here are based on possibilites GROUNDED in REALITY. You express faith in a book that says "this is how it happened" (miraculously) and you swallow it, hook line and sinker. I express doubt because of the reality we ALL experience daily which suggests such things don't happen and I'm the strange on. Just great!

Your "proof" is the bible, a book that REQUIRES that we accept things on FAITH (things that do NOT have to be proven) and I try to give more naturalisitc interpretations that were NOT understood in the ancient world and you think you have these great answers. Your simplistic response of "the bible said it so it MUST be true" or "the bible's proof is ALL you need" is so narrow it is not even funny. You my friend, are the one living in the fantasy - a square room with white pages and black covers.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:49 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,491,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Ok. let me see if I get this right. You believe in a book that talk about talking snakes and donkeys, the sun standing still, dead people coming back to life, angels killing off soldiers, gods expressing fear that man might become like them, divine orders to extrerminate other people and other incredulous nonsense and *I* live in some kind of fantasy???

The things I mentioned here are based on possibilites GROUNDED in REALITY. You express faith in a book that says "this is how it happened" (miraculously) and you swallow it, hook line and sinker. I express doubt because of the reality we ALL experience daily which suggests such things don't happen and I'm the strange on. Just great!

You're "proof" is the bible a book that REQUIRES that we accept things on FAITH (things that do NOT have to be proven) and I try to give more naturalisitc interpretations that were NOT understood in the ancient world and you think you have these great answers.
Your proofs (or lack thereof) are actually weaker than what I have that the events actually happened. I have historical accounts of what the people witnessed first hand. You just have "well it doesn't make sense to me it happened that way" yet you have absolutely no proof at all to back up your claims.

Do you believe birds can talk? Chimps have been taught how to communicate with quite a large vocabulary through sign language. Of course donkeys can talk when God opens their ability. I've had an ass talking to me in this thread for a number of days now

By the way, I don't agree with this statement you made above: "gods expressing fear that man might become like them."

You have yet to prove God was fearful man would become like Him. Just saying so does not prove so.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:34 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Your proofs (or lack thereof) are actually weaker than what I have that the events actually happened. I have historical accounts of what the people witnessed first hand. You just have "well it doesn't make sense to me it happened that way" yet you have absolutely no proof at all to back up your claims.

Do you believe birds can talk? Chimps have been taught how to communicate with quite a large vocabulary through sign language. Of course donkeys can talk when God opens their ability. I've had an ass talking to me in this thread for a number of days now

By the way, I don't agree with this statement you made above: "gods expressing fear that man might become like them."

You have yet to prove God was fearful man would become like Him. Just saying so does not prove so.
I often work with probabilities and thus, all things won't have "proof" every step of the way, but the probablities are GREATER than your belief based on faith. What you fail to realize is that the Bible is the SOURCE of the myths/rumor and you CAN'T take the myths/rumors to then CONFIRM the myths and rumors. As an atheist used to constantly tell me when I was once on your side of the fence, "YOU CANNOT USE THE BIBLE TO PROVE THE BIBLE!"

The Bible says that Elijah was caught up to heaven in a chariot of fire. We are supposed to just believe that BECAUSE...??? This is not something that happens at all so if we express doubt, we are well within the realm of reasoning to do so. Just to accept it "because the bible says so" is NOT proof and just because Jack says, "hey, all my classmates saw it too" is not exactly solid proof either because Jack could be lying to people he knows might never be able to or care to talk to his classmates.

My opening post was designed to give a more naturalistic POSSIBLE explanation to the biblical story of the Exodus. To ancient man, probably far away from ground zero and having NO clue what might have happened or was going on, living in a region that is known for seismic and volcanic activity and living in a world where they believed gods manipulated nature to bring about disasters on wrongdoers, it is VERY possible and PROBABLE that the grand tale of the Exodus was written within the arena of religious superstition and thus the possibility of exaggeration.

Here's an example of working with clues to conclude possibilities. In the Koran, we read where Muhammad, after first commanding his followers to pray toward Jerusalem, eventually changed that command and asked them to pray toward Mecca. The Koran does not tell us why. Well, a little browsing around leads us to the conclusion that at first, Muhammad wanted to endear himself to the Jews and when they rejected his claim he became hostile toward them. Now WITHOUT using thE Koran, what do you think happened as to the change of command in the Koran? The lines are NOT that blurred that you cannot read between them, right? This is how some of the stories are in the Bible. You can find out about the religious, theological and physical atmosphere of a period and draw certain probable conclusions and have great certainty that such and such happened because of such and such. It's not that hard and it beats JUST believing because..You can't take BELIEF into a court of law, but you can SHOW probable cause and win a case.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:20 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,491,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I often work with probabilities and thus, all things won't have "proof" every step of the way, but the probablities are GREATER than your belief based on faith. What you fail to realize is that the Bible is the SOURCE of the myths/rumor and you CAN'T take the myths/rumors to then CONFIRM the myths and rumors. As an atheist used to constantly tell me when I was once on your side of the fence, "YOU CANNOT USE THE BIBLE TO PROVE THE BIBLE!"

The Bible says that Elijah was caught up to heaven in a chariot of fire. We are supposed to just believe that BECAUSE...??? This is not something that happens at all so if we express doubt, we are well within the realm of reasoning to do so. Just to accept it "because the bible says so" is NOT proof and just because Jack says, "hey, all my classmates saw it too" is not exactly solid proof either because Jack could be lying to people he knows might never be able to or care to talk to his classmates.
Actually, the Bible doesn't say Elijah was caught up to heaven in a chariot of fire. If you are going to try to poo poo what I believe it would help your cause to get your facts straight first.

And, yes, I really do believe the eye witness account of Elisha. He had no reason to lie. You, on the other hand have no proof it did not occur other than your say so. You can't even get your facts straight. You are trying to present yourself as credible?

Quote:
My opening post was designed to give a more naturalistic POSSIBLE explanation to the biblical story of the Exodus. To ancient man, probably far away from ground zero and having NO clue what might have happened or was going on, living in a region that is known for seismic and volcanic activity and living in a world where they believed gods manipulated nature to bring about disasters on wrongdoers, it is VERY possible and PROBABLE that the grand tale of the Exodus was written within the arena of religious superstition and thus the possibility of exaggeration.
If is more probable that the grand historical story of the exodus ws written as an eye-witness account. You don't normally make your hero (Moses) look like a murderer and a goofball who can't even talk right, who has no self confidence and needs a brother to speak for him. Who says things have to happen in a logical way that makes sense or it could not have happened? Why is God not allowed to show the world His powers are no match for the Egyptian priests and their magic?

Quote:
Here's an example of working with clues to conclude possibilities. In the Koran, we read where Muhammad, after first commanding his followers to pray toward Jerusalem, eventually changed that command and asked them to pray toward Mecca. The Koran does not tell us why. Well, a little browsing around leads us to the conclusion that at first, Muhammad wanted to endear himself to the Jews and when they rejected his claim he became hostile toward them. Now WITHOUT using thE Koran, what do you think happened as to the change of command in the Koran? The lines are NOT that blurred that you cannot read between them, right? This is how some of the stories are in the Bible. You can find out about the religious, theological and physical atmosphere of a period and draw certain probable conclusions and have great certainty that such and such happened because of such and such. It's not that hard and it beats JUST believing because..You can't take BELIEF into a court of law, but you can SHOW probable cause and win a case.
I have more probably cause for my beliefs than you do against them. You can't actually, scientifically PROVE, based upon what happened to the Koran that the Bible is made up of make believe stories.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:31 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually, the Bible doesn't say Elijah was caught up to heaven in a chariot of fire. If you are going to try to poo poo what I believe it would help your cause to get your facts straight first.
Ok, he walked up there.

Quote:
And, yes, I really do believe the eye witness account of Elisha. He had no reason to lie.
And you know this HOW exactly???

Quote:
You, on the other hand have no proof it did not occur other than your say so.
So you believe EVERY single sci-fi story you hear? Again, I remain in a world of REALITY yours drifts off into the Twilight Zone.


Quote:
If is more probable that the grand historical story of the exodus ws written as an eye-witness account. You don't normally make your hero (Moses) look like a murderer and a goofball who can't even talk right, who has no self confidence and needs a brother to speak for him. Who says things have to happen in a logical way that makes sense or it could not have happened? Why is God not allowed to show the world His powers are no match for the Egyptian priests and their magic?
Um, the Greeks painted Zeus as a womanzing, hot headed pervert. Hercules was depicted as a muscular lunk head with anger problems. Ulysses Grant was a known drunk and there are other "heroes" throughout history who have had their weaknesses documented. It makes for great drama. So your point proves what again???


Quote:
I have more probably cause for my beliefs than you do against them. You can't actually, scientifically PROVE, based upon what happened to the Koran that the Bible is made up of make believe stories.
That a donkey spoke to a man, the sun stood still and a snake spoke to two humans or that Genies (the Koran) are running around the place is HIGHLY unlikely in ANY event IF, as you do, take the stories LITERALLY so we can feel comfortable in concluding that they are either made up OR symbolic or allegorical stories designed to make some other point.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Ok, he walked up there.
No. Try to get your facts straight.



Quote:
And you know this HOW exactly???
Know what? That a fiery chariot took him heavenward, or he walked up there or what? What are the facts as I would know them?


Quote:
So you believe EVERY single sci-fi story you hear? Again, I remain in a world of REALITY yours drifts off into the Twilight Zone.
The Bible doesn't start out as if it is a Rod Serling Twilight Zone sci-fi story.
I don't believe any sci-fi story that is make believe, do you?




Quote:
Um, the Greeks painted Zeus as a womanzing, hot headed pervert. Hercules was depicted as a muscular lunk head with anger problems. Ulysses Grant was a known drunk and there are other "heroes" throughout history who have had their weaknesses documented. It makes for great drama. So your point proves what again???
So what? It doesn't disprove there was a real Moses who had problems and God used to lead His people out of Egypt. I was disproving your point that the Hebrews made up all these stories to make them look good.

I have more probable cause for my beliefs than you do against them. You can't actually, scientifically PROVE, based upon what happened to the Koran that the Bible is made up of make believe stories.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:48 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
No. Try to get your facts straight.
Ok, so Elijah is hanging out someplace between earth and heaven I take it as the facts are NOT that he went to heaven. My bad. Minor point.





Quote:
Know what? That a fiery chariot took him heavenward, or he walked up there or what? What are the facts as I would know them?
That Elisha (or better yet, the WRITER telling the story) had NO reason to lie?


Quote:
The Bible doesn't start out as if it is a Rod Serling Twilight Zone sci-fi story.
Of course not. It is written WITHIN the style of the point in time. Just bcause it does not start with "Once upon a time" does not mean it is NOT a book of fantasy.

Quote:
I don't believe any sci-fi story that is make believe, do you?
The bible has a few of those stories.

Quote:
So what? It doesn't disprove there was a real Moses who had problems and God used to lead His people out of Egypt. I was disproving your point that the Hebrews made up all these stories to make them look good.
No ALL of their stories were NOT designed to make them look good. They were no different than the Babylonians singing the praises of their god Marduk and believing they were chosen to rule the world.

Quote:
I have more probable cause for my beliefs than you do against them. You can't actually, scientifically PROVE, based upon what happened to the Koran that the Bible is made up of make believe stories.


How can science prove a donkey spoke to Balaam, for example? You really expect that if Science can't prove it then it MUST be true??? How can science prove that somewhere in the distant past, for a moment the sun "stood still???" If it can't then it MUST have been true???
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:56 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,491,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Ok, so Elijah is hanging out someplace between earth and heaven I take it as the facts are NOT that he went to heaven. My bad. Minor point.
You still haven't got your facts straight. And I'm supposed to take you as credible?







Quote:
That Elisha (or better yet, the WRITER telling the story) had NO reason to lie?
No reason whatsoever. I'm sure you have a credible scientific proof he lied?



Quote:
Of course not. It is written WITHIN the style of the point in time. Just bcause it does not start with "Once upon a time" does not mean it is NOT a book of fantasy.
Neither the writer nor the readers took Genesis as fantasy. It was never meant to be fantasy.


Quote:
The bible has a few of those stories.
Whatever.


Quote:
No ALL of their stories were NOT designed to make them look good. They were no different than the Babylonians singing the praises of their god Marduk and believing they were chosen to rule the world.
Really? And you have scientific proof the Hebrews just made everything up in the Bible?


Quote:


How can science prove a donkey spoke to Balaam, for example? You really expect that if Science can't prove it then it MUST be true??? How can science prove that somewhere in the distant past, for a moment the sun "stood still???" If it can't then it MUST have been true???
No, it doesn't prove it true but lack of evidence does not prove it is not true.
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