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Old 01-02-2011, 10:19 AM
 
Location: New York City
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When I weed through the story of the Exodus and get past the colorful details, I tend to see a few details that MAY tell another side of story if not the real story. The commonly accepted story (well amongst Christians) is that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and their god intervened and delivered them after a series of miraculous acts that drove the Egyptians to their knees. When the Egyptians could not take any more, they practically ran the Hebrews out of their land, however, there are some details in the story that might just lead to another conclusion. Is there more to the story?

In Exodus chapter 3, we are told that Yahweh meets Moses in a desert encounter and they have a conversation. God tells Moses that he is going to use him to go to Pharaoh to request the liberation of his people, the Hebrews. He then tells Moses that he is to gather the elders from amongst the people and approach Pharaoh and request a three-day journey into the desert to sacrifice to their god.

Some point out this was merely a formal "feeling out" request of the Pharaoh so that it could be shown up front that Pharaoh was not going to let the Hebrews go, however, the following verses seem to indicate something more on a grand scale. In addition, the following verses are also rather puzzling. God tells Moses that Pharaoh will not let them go so he will have to intervene and deliver the people and upon their exodus out of Egypt, they are to "borrow" silver and gold articles as well as clothing and place them on their [Hebrew] children. What is interesting, however, is that this act would be called plundering.

Two questions jump out. Why was Moses going to request a three-day journey into the wilderness when in the final analysis, the plan was to leave Egypt for good? Secondly, why were the Hebrews commanded to borrow articles from their Egyptian rivals when, again, in the final analysis there was no intention to return anything nor do we ever read they returned these borrowed items. Now plundering would be another matter and would be a better description of what may have transpired because none of these items were ever returned. Considering human nature, this would seem more realistic, but some will take the road of faith and claim that there was a divine mover who worked the hearts of the Egyptians over to sympathize with the Hebrews and as a result, they willingly gave the valuable items to the Hebrews. In this regard, the story then takes on the idea that the Hebrews simply asked for the items and the Egyptians willingly gave or they gave them up voluntarily. Any idea of plunder/stealing is removed.

Then the plagues came. Some have pointed out that these plagues were nothing more than natural events that came about as a result of seismic and volcanic activity in the area, notably from the tremendous volcanic eruption 700 miles away on the Mediterranean island of Thera,* a blast considered to be one of the greatest in human history.

Seismic activity may have ruptured the ground beneath the Nile and allowed poisonous carbon dioxide gas to escape into the waters and shoreline. The resulting effect would create a reddish hue to the Nile's waters giving the appearance of blood (the biblical account points to Moses initiating the event with God's help when he stretched out his hand and struck the waters of the Nile). The gas would also kill nearby grazing livestock and produce boils on the skin of humans. Fishes would die as they cannot escape, but animals like frogs can hop out and find safety further inland, perhaps taking refuge amongst human habitations. Lack of clean water could produce an outbreak of lice and dead fish would gather flies. It is not surprising that all of these plagues came about as a result of the Nile becoming polluted when the waters became poisoned with carbon dioxide.

A huge sky blackening ash cloud may have reached as far as parts of Egypt and darkened the daytime sky and affected the climate which might explain the plague of darkness. The lava blast could have feasibly dropped a hail of fire on the Egyptian landscape which could account for the plague of raining fire and hail. Did hordes of locust also make it to Egypt in search for food, arriving from other areas affected by the blast?

All of the above would be mere speculation of course if we did not have modern examples of such things. In 1986 at Lake Nyos in Cameroon, the lake turned blood red, fishes died, people and animals near the lake died and others broke out with boils on their skin. Africa has three such known lakes (another in Cameroon and one in Rwanda). Lake Nyos is actually atop the crater of a dormant volcano and the other two lakes are also in volcano zones. In addition, it is no modern secret volcano ash can blacken the daytime sky and plunge temperatures. I personally stood on the steps of my grandmother's house in Nevis in the middle of the day in darkness caused by ash from the volcanic eruption on the nearby island of Montserrat 27 miles away.

After these plagues and the mysterious deaths of Egypt's firstborn, the Bible tells us that Pharaoh orders Moses to get the Hebrews out of his land probably feeling the Hebrews were the reason for the all the disasters, a cursed people, so to speak. On their way out the Hebrews plunder the Egyptians who may have been in shock and grief and maybe even afraid of the Hebrews. The bible then tells us that after the Hebrews left Egypt, Pharaoh has a change of heart, a change initiated by God we are told, and he decides to go back after the Hebrews and bring them back to servitude. What is odd about this is that we are told that Pharaoh is the one who orders the Hebrews to leave his land, but then later we are told that Pharaoh was TOLD that the Hebrews had fled the land indicating he was apparently not aware of this exodus and then he decided to pursue them. Playing devil's advocate here, it can easily be deduced that what we may have had was a foreign people (the Hebrews) who, in the eyes of the Egyptians, may have used various national disasters to their advantage, topped off by plundering [stealing] of their property who then escaped during a national crisis. Pharaoh's pursuit fails (bible mentions yet another miracle that aided their deliverance) and the Hebrews/Israelites eventually go on to butcher their way to the domination of Canaan.

Thoughts?


*Some have argued that the date of the Exodus should actually be pushed back and in doing so, this would place it within the same time frame as the eruption of Santorini.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:13 PM
 
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Taking Gods hand out of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt may sound comfortable to the natural mind who cannot preseave the things of the spirit ....... but most Christians believers who had a miracle experance will likely believe the Ten Commandments hollywood story with all the miracles with Charlton Heston movie as clear to life of what happened in thoughs days
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:43 PM
 
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Concerning the plagues, I wonder why only the Egyptian's cattle were killed off, their trees and plants destroyed and only the first born of the Egyptians died but none of the Hebrew children died?

Why did lice and frogs only go to the Egytians? It is possible God used nature to do what needed to be done. But I doubt it is just a matter of the Hebrews saying: Hey, there was a great volcanic explosion over yonder. The Egyptians are really stupid. Let's go and tell them to let us go or this and this will happen.

The problem the above scenario is that Aaron, Moses' mouthpiece, told Pharaoh that certain things were going to occur before they occurred. And they only occurred upon Moses' order.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:39 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Concerning the plagues, I wonder why only the Egyptian's cattle were killed off, their trees and plants destroyed and only the first born of the Egyptians died but none of the Hebrew children died?

Why did lice and frogs only go to the Egytians? It is possible God used nature to do what needed to be done. But I doubt it is just a matter of the Hebrews saying: Hey, there was a great volcanic explosion over yonder. The Egyptians are really stupid. Let's go and tell them to let us go or this and this will happen.

The problem the above scenario is that Aaron, Moses' mouthpiece, told Pharaoh that certain things were going to occur before they occurred. And they only occurred upon Moses' order.
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:56 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Concerning the plagues, I wonder why only the Egyptian's cattle were killed off, their trees and plants destroyed and only the first born of the Egyptians died but none of the Hebrew children died?

Why did lice and frogs only go to the Egytians? It is possible God used nature to do what needed to be done. But I doubt it is just a matter of the Hebrews saying: Hey, there was a great volcanic explosion over yonder. The Egyptians are really stupid. Let's go and tell them to let us go or this and this will happen.

The problem the above scenario is that Aaron, Moses' mouthpiece, told Pharaoh that certain things were going to occur before they occurred. And they only occurred upon Moses' order.
This is where you and I differ, as the story is told STRICTLY from a Hebrew standpoint with their god starring in the show and it is a story written long AFTER the alleged events. In that case, the story can be enhanced with interesting details to sell a point.
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
This is where you and I differ, as the story is told STRICTLY from a Hebrew standpoint
Well, it should be no surprise that the whole Bible is told from a Hebrew
standpoint, as if that is a bad thing.


Quote:
with their god starring in the show
Well, why should that be a bad thing? After all, God told Abraham before
they went into Egypt that they'd be held prisoner there and that after 400
some years He'd rescue them. You can't fault Him for doing what He
promised to Abraham.


Genesis 15:13-14 CLV And saying is He to Abram, "Knowing, yea, knowing
are you that a sojourner is your seed to become in a land not theirs, and
they are to serve them. Yet evil shall they do to them and humiliate them
four hundred years. (14) Moreover, also, the nation which they are
serving will I adjudicate. And afterward they are to fare forth hither with
great goods.

Exodus 12:40-41 CLV Now the dwelling of the sons of Israel and their
fathers who dwelt in the land of Canaan and in the land of Egypt was four
hundred thirty years. (41) And it came to be at the end of four hundred
thirty years--and it came to be on this very day--that all the host of
Yahweh went forth from the land of Egypt.


Quote:
and it is a story written long AFTER the alleged events. In that case, the story can be enhanced with interesting details to sell a point.
This is getting interesting. Do you have the exact date when they exited
Egypt? And do you have an exact date as to when Exodus was written?
Maybe you found a copy of Exodus with a copyright notice on it of 1500
B.C.?

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-04-2011 at 06:31 AM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 09:20 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Well, it should be no surprise that the whole Bible is told from a Hebrew
standpoint, as if that is a bad thing.
Well, when you only have ONE side of a story it is never a good thing, right? What if the Canaanites left us what they thought about the Hebrews, for example. You, at the moment, are simply accepting the Jewish version of things. Clearly they "spiced up" the stories to add the rich flavor we read today.


Quote:
Well, why should that be a bad thing? After all, God told Abraham before they went into Egypt that they'd be held prisoner there and that after 400 some years He'd rescue them. You can't fault Him for doing what He promised to Abraham.
Again Eusebius, you are not even considering the fact that with the stories being written long AFTER the fact, it leavs open the great possibility of exaggerations and embellishments based on agenda and biases. Of course, in hindsight, god predicted he would rescue the Hebrews after 400 years. You have hindsight to work with so all your numbers can be accurate in retelling the story.


Quote:
This is getting interesting. Do you have the exact date when they exited
Egypt? And do you have an exact date as to when Exodus was written?
Maybe you found a copy of Exodus with a copyright notice on it of 1500
B.C.?
Huh??? When did I say I did or was this meant for Ancient Warrior?
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Old 01-04-2011, 09:30 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
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Quote:
Again Eusebius, you are not even considering the fact that with the stories being written long AFTER the fact, it leavs open the great possibility of exaggerations and embellishments based on agenda and biases. Of course, in hindsight, god predicted he would rescue the Hebrews after 400 years. You have hindsight to work with so all your numbers can be accurate in retelling the story.
Quote:
Eusebius replied:
This is getting interesting. Do you have the exact date when they exited
Egypt? And do you have an exact date as to when Exodus was written?
Maybe you found a copy of Exodus with a copyright notice on it of 1500
Quote:
Insane replied:
B.C.? Huh??? When did I say I did or was this meant for Ancient Warrior?
You surely must have some date for the exodus and for the writing of the book called "Exodus" to make the above claim that the writing "Exodus" "was written long after the fact."

Where are your dates to prove your assertion?
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:00 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You surely must have some date for the exodus and for the writing of the book called "Exodus" to make the above claim that the writing "Exodus" "was written long after the fact."

Where are your dates to prove your assertion?
How many time has it been proven over and over and over again that the Jews (not Hebrews or Israelites) did NOT write down their religious history until some time past the Babylonian captivity? This would be almost 1,200 years AFTER the alleged events found in the Book of Exodus. Perhaps there were oral stories passed down and this would be plausible, but we all know how spoken stories can grow magical over a long period of time. There is no indication that while all these things were going on Moses or any scribe was busy writing down every detail no matter what has been assumed by the church over the centuries.

If you want to see what I mean, an example can be found in the book of Genesis. The details found in the book of Genesis starts with the creation and ends with the death of Joseph. The death of Joseph supposedly happened some 1,500 years BEFORE Israel had a king. Now if the writer of Genesis was Moses or someone in the older eras of Israelite history, why is it that in Genesis 39 we read about "kings of Israel?" What this tells us is that the writer had to be writing during the time of Israel's kings or some time after and this would be some 1,500 years later.

This is what I am referring to. The Jews, out of necessity, sat down and wrote their religious history down, most of which was long after the fact. In that huge gap, they could tell it with all the fanciful details. We read incredulous stories about David and Jonathan defeating entire Philistine armies and of David's mighty men sounding invincible. We read about angels wiping out 85,000 Assyrian soldiers and people walking across Seas on dry land. Could all these stories be based on SOME truth? Quite possible. Does it sound like fanciful details were added in? VERY possible.

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 01-04-2011 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: New York City
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It's not that great of leap to understand this Eusebius. Nations/peoples have all done this when retelling their histories or recounting tales when it comes to their national heroes. I'm a black man and I cannot tell you how many grand stories I have heard about black folks, notably in Africa. In fact, I've read book where just about everyone of note in history was "black."
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