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Old 01-02-2011, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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So there is only immortality and mortality spoken of in the scriptures. We constantly here the ETers claim that the wicked shall suffer eternal torment in a lake of fire. Ever see what fire does? - sure we all have. It consumes what it is given. A mortal person in a fire would be consumed to ashes in no time.

The ETers want you to believe that this talk of a lake of fire is a REAL literal fire that will burn you for the rest of eternity. See the problem here? One would have to be immortal to keep the fire from consuming you to ashes. There is no talk of a regenerative mortality in the scriptures. But the scriptures tell us this about immortality:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So immortality is not an inherent attribute nor a gift to those of wickedness. Now the ETers have a lot to explain.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.


Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

God is a consuming fire the scriptures says. The scriptures show that man is mortal and that Immortality is a gift to the righteous so there is no way that a mortal man could withstand a lake of fire for the rest of eternity or for that matter a second or two.

Also, the scriptures show that to obtain immortality requires the Holy Spirit to make your mortal bodies into immortal:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

There is no talk of a regenerative mortality in the scriptures. Your either mortal or immortal.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:07 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So there is only immortality and mortality spoken of in the scriptures. We constantly here the ETers claim that the wicked shall suffer eternal torment in a lake of fire. Ever see what fire does? - sure we all have. It consumes what it is given. A mortal person in a fire would be consumed to ashes in no time.

The ETers want you to believe that this talk of a lake of fire is a REAL literal fire that will burn you for the rest of eternity. See the problem here? One would have to be immortal to keep the fire from consuming you to ashes. There is no talk of a regenerative mortality in the scriptures. But the scriptures tell us this about immortality:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So immortality is not an inherent attribute nor a gift to those of wickedness. Now the ETers have a lot to explain.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.


Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

God is a consuming fire the scriptures says. The scriptures show that man is mortal and that Immortality is a gift to the righteous so there is no way that a mortal man could withstand a lake of fire for the rest of eternity or for that matter a second or two.

Also, the scriptures show that to obtain immortality requires the Holy Spirit to make your mortal bodies into immortal:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

There is no talk of a regenerative mortality in the scriptures. Your either mortal or immortal.
And it is conditional based upon the belief in Jesus Christ for redemption. Otherwise, you remain dead, spiritually(first), then physicallly(second).
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And it is conditional based upon the belief in Jesus Christ for redemption. Otherwise, you remain dead, spiritually(first), then physicallly(second).
Immortality is conditional. Yes, man doesn't have immortality by default.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Immortality is conditional. Yes, man doesn't have immortality by default.
Not according to your doctrines. You say that mankind will live forever, immortal, simply based upon your doctrine of UR. You say that mankind who have not yet believed, WILL believe, hense they wiill never die.

Ergo, since mankind cannot die, and needs punished to bow that knee and repent, after the passing of this flesh,,,then man by his very nature is immortal,,,right???

Wrong. It is, and always has been conditional.
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,237,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Not according to your doctrines. You say that mankind will live forever, immortal, simply based upon your doctrine of UR. You say that mankind who have not yet believed, WILL believe, hense they wiill never die.

Ergo, since mankind cannot die, and needs punished to bow that knee and repent, after the passing of this flesh,,,then man by his very nature is immortal,,,right???

Wrong. It is, and always has been conditional.
Amen.
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Not according to your doctrines. You say that mankind will live forever, immortal, simply based upon your doctrine of UR. You say that mankind who have not yet believed, WILL believe, hense they wiill never die.
No, I never said that man will live forever. NOT ME. I believe man is mortal. I believe he has to be given immortality to keep from dieing. But Yes, I do believe that all men will eventually believe and receive that immortality. But until then they are mortal.

Quote:
Ergo, since mankind cannot die, and needs punished to bow that knee and repent, after the passing of this flesh,,,then man by his very nature is immortal,,,right???

Wrong. It is, and always has been conditional.
Nope, I believe it is conditional as well on belief and believe all will eventually believe.
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
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I thought the spirit man of mankind were all eternal. Just some will spend that eternity with God, while others will not.
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by GloryB View Post
I thought the spirit man of mankind were all eternal. Just some will spend that eternity with God, while others will not.
No GloryB, that is a widely held belief but is not found in scripture. I showed verses in the OP that specifically prove that to not be the case.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No, I never said that man will live forever. NOT ME. I believe man is mortal. I believe he has to be given immortality to keep from dieing.
Then this verse hold up, as Truth:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Quote:
But Yes, I do believe that all men will eventually believe and receive that immortality. But until then they are mortal.
But Jesus already said "will not see life", so does this mean He didn't mean what He said? If a person will not see life", how does one get life to see life? Do you see this as a hyperbole?


Quote:
Nope, I believe it is conditional as well on belief and believe all will eventually believe.
Again, how can someone who doesn't have life through Jesus, gain this life through ONLY the Son, and GET this life without belief in and through the Son? IOW, how can they be resurrected TO life, when they have NO life? They are dead.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Now, this verse is curious. Here we have two seperate peoples. I have come to believe that the first part was intended for the OT Saints and Prophets. Why? Because they died. The second is for Christians, as I believe we have eternal life now,,,not later as some supposed.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,630,903 times
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Then this verse hold up, as Truth:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Yes, as long as your not believing in the Son of God the wrath abides. Thankfully, that wont be forever.

Quote:
But Jesus already said "will not see life", so does this mean He didn't mean what He said? If a person will not see life", how does one get life to see life? Do you see this as a hyperbole?
Jesus put the condition on who would not see life. Those not believing. The ones that believe will get the life. He will eventually have all to believe.

Quote:
Again, how can someone who doesn't have life through Jesus, gain this life through ONLY the Son, and GET this life without belief in and through the Son? IOW, how can they be resurrected TO life, when they have NO life? They are dead.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Nobody, it must all be via the Son. And it will be. Once everyone believes they will have His life.

Quote:
Now, this verse is curious. Here we have two seperate peoples. I have come to believe that the first part was intended for the OT Saints and Prophets. Why? Because they died. The second is for Christians, as I believe we have eternal life now,,,not later as some supposed.
Actually, everyone made alive in Christ has to die. Their lives have to be annihilated. So that the new man Christ resides in us. Our former selves perishing - never to exist again.
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