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Old 01-04-2011, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I told you what to do. You post the link to the thread and the post number here on this thread so that people can see what I said.

It is in the forum, people can already see what you said.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Perhaps they are confusing the baptism of the Spirit (which results in indwelling of the Spirit), with the filling of the Spirit. Many believers have the Spirit indwelling in them, but they suppress/quench/grieve it and do not allow it to work in their lives.
That's possible. Because as you say, the indwelling of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit are two different ministries of God the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is permanent. The filling of the Spirit is lost with the commission of a sin, and restored when the sin is named to God per 1 John 1:9.

But it may be also that many believers equate the baptism of the Spirit with getting the ghost, where they roll around in the isles and froth at the mouth, speaking gibberish and calling it tongues. That sort of thing.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:31 PM
 
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Concerning the believers soul:

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

Now for unbelievers:

Matthew 10:28 ''Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

Jesus is referring to unbelievers who will be in hell. He states that man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. The soul of the unbeliever survives the death of his body. God can destroy the soul in hell. But destroy does not mean annihilation, or cessation of existence. It means to be rendered useless, in ruin and uselessness.



Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No, the body is exactly what it infers, the spirit is the character of the person, and the soul is the life exhibited.

The spirit apart from the body is non existing. Again, there is no life apart from the body. A spirit + body = soul. I suggest you go look up all those verses again. The word for soul is often translated as "life". Because that is what you have once you join the spirit to the body.
It is you who needs to look at those verses again. Matthew 28:10 alone tells you that the soul survives the death of the body.

And the distinction between body, soul and human spirit is mentioned in both 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4:12.

All right. To anyone reading this, if you are even halfway honest with yourself, you will realize from the above passages that the soul is immortal and is separate from the body.

If you are of a sort who continues to deny the clear meaning of those passages, then simply continue believing what you want. I'm certainly not going to waste my time going back and forth repeating what I've already said. The proof is in the passages above. Do with them as you will.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is the one that puzzles me. If babies are infused with souls at the moment of birth, then abortions are okay because we're just killing a soulless organism, like a bacteria or an amoeba.
The reason it may seem puzzling is because of the box that decision theology creates vs. what God says:

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Psalm 22:10
From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Romans 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.


John 3:6 is really the thorn. Either:
  • If we have a decision when we're spiritually born, then we have a decision when we're physically born
or
  • If we don't have a decision when we are physically born (which most people agree to), then we don't have a decision when we are spiritually.



What's incorrect is that when IMO determines that since John 3:6 is true..
  • God then must either UR or annihilate afterwards to avoid this appearance injustice by holding accountable humans for not believing
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:43 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,044,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I said, what we have in the N.T. scriptures is what was taught by the Apostles to the various churches. And as the Apostles wrote their letters which went into the N. T. they were circulated (individually) to the various churches. The early church had the scriptures. First verbally, and then they as they were written, the letters were sent to the different churches.



The Bible is the word of God. It is His message to man. It is the textbook which the Holy Spirit uses to teach believers the doctrines that God expects believers to know and live by.

No, I am not teaching idolatry. Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4).

When you dismiss the importance of the Bible you blaspheme God.




NO YOU WILL NOT. Knowing God requires understanding the doctrines of the word of God. Every believer is indwelled by God the Holy Spirit, but most believers know very little about God. The Holy Spirit only teaches the believer what has been transferred from the Bible into the soul of the believer under the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Apart from the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit will NEVER teach the believer anything about election, predestination, the dispensational nature of God's plan, or any of the other doctrines of the word of God. The doctrines of the word of God are NOT the doctrines of men.




The sound doctrine that Paul as well as the other writers of the New Testament wrote are found in the Epistles. The gospel is for unbelievers. The doctrines of the New Testament Epistles are for church-age believers.

Now, pertaining to Paul's letters, here is what Peter had to say.

2 Peter 3:15 'and reqard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you. 16] As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17] You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, 18] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity, Amen.




You are free to reject whatever you want. You do indeed reject what Paul and the other apostles taught. You have no idea what they taught because you dismiss the Bible as unimportant. You have encouraged people on other threads not to study the Scriptures.

And as long as you reject the doctrines of the New Testament Epistles, you will never know God. You may or may not be saved. But you have very little knowledge or understanding of God and His plan.





To the contrary. It is ONLY through the Bible that the believer can know God, because the Holy Spirit only teaches you what has been transferred under His teaching ministry from the Bible into your soul. The Holy Spirit does not teach you anything apart from regular consistent study of the word of God.

As I said, you have the right to believe what you want. But your beliefs are wrong. And I strongly advise you to sit yourself down and study some basic Bible doctrine, as you are sorely in need. I have given you access in the first post to sources of sound doctrinal teaching. Now you can take advantage of the opportunity that has been given to you, or you can toss it away.
Mike,

you are again in error!which bible do you read? See the result of a lack of the Spirit?

Now go to acts and read the story of the Ethiopian eunuch and then come back
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,520 posts, read 31,917,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
you quote the scriptures but you lack the spirit to understand what you quote. Repent and be baptized of the Holy Spirit, not just baptism unto repentance
Who authorized you to judge other people's faith?
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:15 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Which is probably why to most, it seems that I make no sense.

For the most part here...there is one popular theology that starts incorrectly (decision theology) being refuted by another theology that ends incorrectly (UR and annihilation).


We know the rejection of the truth (John 3:36) is not UR \ annihilation but God's wrath.

We know the whole world is accountable and nobody will have an excuse and mouths being shut.

However :
We know that God is a God of mercy while being just.
We know that God is sympathetic to "little ones"
Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
We know that even though God desires all 1Tim 2:4, not all will desire him Matthew 25:41-46
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Mike,

you are again in error!which bible do you read? See the result of a lack of the Spirit?

Now go to acts and read the story of the Ethiopian eunuch and then come back
No, I am not in error. I suggest you avail yourself of the sources of sound doctrinal teaching that has made available in the original post.
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That's possible. Because as you say, the indwelling of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit are two different ministries of God the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is permanent. The filling of the Spirit is lost with the commission of a sin, and restored when the sin is named to God per 1 John 1:9.

But it may be also that many believers equate the baptism of the Spirit with getting the ghost, where they roll around in the isles and froth at the mouth, speaking gibberish and calling it tongues. That sort of thing.
Well, I wasn't "rolling around and speaking gibberish." But it changed my life, it GAVE me life, it gave me LOVE, it set me on fire, and I've never experienced anything else like it.
When it happens, you'll know...

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
I read this whole thread and I agree that the differances in the two doctrines will not be resolved here but I do enjoy the differant perspectives. I do have a couple of questions for Mike.

Where in the Bible does it say babies and the young or mentally ill atomaticly go to heaven?
The issue is not directly addressed. However, because God is just and fair, He does not hold those who are unable to even conceive of His existence responsible to make a decision that they cannot make. Because of the work of Christ on the cross, babies and people who are so mentally incapacitated that they have not reached the point of God consciousness are automatically saved. (Not referring to those who are mentally ill, but to those who never developed sufficiently mentally [mental retardation] to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being).

Quote:
Where does it say the soul is immortal?
The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment See post #97.

Quote:
If we already have immortality why do we need resserection of a mortal body that can not enter heaven.
The soul is immortal. The body is not. It is God's plan that the body will be resurrected to immortality. The body will be resurrected immortal and incorruptable. 1 Cor 15:50-54

Quote:
Where does it say that God gives us a soul at the monent of birth?
The Bible emphasizes birth as the beginning of human life as opposed to the biological life which exists in the womb. Such passages as Ecc 3:2; Isa 9:6; Mathew 11:11; Luke 2:10-11 show this.

The angels rejoiced at the birth of Jesus. Not at His conception Luke 2:7-14.

Job presents a number of passages which speak of birth as the beginning of human life. Job 3:11; Job 14:1, Job 15:14; Job 38:21

There are several passages which because they are misunderstood cause some to falsely believe that the Bible teaches human life in the womb.

One such passage is Luke 1:15 ''For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb''

People see this verse and think that if John is filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb, then there must be human life in the womb.

But in the Greek the passage doesn't say that.

pneumatos agiou plēsthēsetai eti ek koilias metros
Spirit of Holy yet he will be filled from womb of mother.

koilias - womb is preceded by 'ek' which means 'out from' and connotes separation.

The verse is actually saying that at birth, John the baptist will be filled with the Holy Spirit. Not that he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.

There is more that can be said on the subject. But I'll leave it at this for now.
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