U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-04-2011, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,392,517 times
Reputation: 437

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Its time to chase the moneychangers out of the temple, again ...

I've got a fire in my belly, Ironmaw. And I don't think it's indigestion.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-04-2011, 10:17 PM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
Reputation: 7507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I believe that you are all mixed up mike, and that you are living in a fantasy world of your own traditional fundamentalist indoctrination.
Believe what you will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2011, 10:43 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,726,344 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The issue is not directly addressed. However, because God is just and fair, He does not hold those who are unable to even conceive of His existence responsible to make a decision that they cannot make. Because of the work of Christ on the cross, babies and people who are so mentally incapacitated that they have not reached the point of God consciousness are automatically saved. (Not referring to those who are mentally ill, but to those who never developed sufficiently mentally [mental retardation] to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being).


Mike, you are just and fair enough to believe what you said here, even though it's not found in scripture. But, God is WAY more just and fair than you or anyone else. He is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or think. I believe God will also show mercy to those who never developed sufficiently spiritually to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being.

This might be someone who was raised by atheists, or a person who honored their father and mother by adhering strictly to the non-Christian religion that was required to be accepted in the family, or a person whose religious parents beat them while yelling about God, making the child equate God with the pain and suffering inflicted upon them, and on and on it goes.....valid reasons why someone might never develop spiritually enough to become a believer in Christ.

You can't just choose one or two groups of people that YOU have mercy on and think those are the only groups God is willing to forgive solely based on the blood of Jesus. You should realize that His blood is powerful enough to save everyone, and God is merciful enough to save everyone, and He will accomplish His will.

God does the saving. It is a complete work of God. If people can save themselves by simply making a wise choice, Jesus didn't need to die. Jesus died to save mankind and He will not fail. You reap what you sow and since no one can sow setting someone on fire for eternity, then they can't reap that!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2011, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,647,135 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Concerning the believers soul:

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

Now for unbelievers:

Matthew 10:28 ''Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

Jesus is referring to unbelievers who will be in hell. He states that man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. The soul of the unbeliever survives the death of his body. God can destroy the soul in hell. But destroy does not mean annihilation, or cessation of existence. It means to be rendered useless, in ruin and uselessness.





It is you who needs to look at those verses again. Matthew 28:10 alone tells you that the soul survives the death of the body.

And the distinction between body, soul and human spirit is mentioned in both 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4:12.

All right. To anyone reading this, if you are even halfway honest with yourself, you will realize from the above passages that the soul is immortal and is separate from the body.

If you are of a sort who continues to deny the clear meaning of those passages, then simply continue believing what you want. I'm certainly not going to waste my time going back and forth repeating what I've already said. The proof is in the passages above. Do with them as you will.
Mike, I'm so sure of what the soul is that I am as confident that God is Almighty enought to save everyone. I know your not that confident.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2011, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,392,517 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
[/b]

Mike, you are just and fair enough to believe what you said here, even though it's not found in scripture. But, God is WAY more just and fair than you or anyone else. He is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or think. I believe God will also show mercy to those who never developed sufficiently spiritually to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being.

This might be someone who was raised by atheists, or a person who honored their father and mother by adhering strictly to the non-Christian religion that was required to be accepted in the family, or a person whose religious parents beat them while yelling about God, making the child equate God with the pain and suffering inflicted upon them, and on and on it goes.....valid reasons why someone might never develop spiritually enough to become a believer in Christ.

You can't just choose one or two groups of people that YOU have mercy on and think those are the only groups God is willing to forgive solely based on the blood of Jesus. You should realize that His blood is powerful enough to save everyone, and God is merciful enough to save everyone, and He will accomplish His will.

God does the saving. It is a complete work of God. If people can save themselves by simply making a wise choice, Jesus didn't need to die. Jesus died to save mankind and He will not fail. You reap what you sow and since no one can sow setting someone on fire for eternity, then they can't reap that!
What a great post, BHFT. There are many around the world who can only equate religion with great turmoil and suffering. For good reason. And they had to walk away from the pain. There are also plenty of people who can't even conceive of something good out there. They can't possibly imagine it. All they've seen is destruction, mayhem, confusion, darkness, and sadness. And even the natural world screams madness to them. Earthquakes, tornadoes, violent outer space, volcanoes, hurricanes, etc.

I don't blame people for not understanding. I really don't.

I just can't imagine God (love) telling them to take a hike into even more torment.

Last edited by herefornow; 01-05-2011 at 12:00 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2011, 11:50 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,431,309 times
Reputation: 5148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
[/b]

Mike, you are just and fair enough to believe what you said here, even though it's not found in scripture. But, God is WAY more just and fair than you or anyone else. He is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or think. I believe God will also show mercy to those who never developed sufficiently spiritually to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being.

This might be someone who was raised by atheists, or a person who honored their father and mother by adhering strictly to the non-Christian religion that was required to be accepted in the family, or a person whose religious parents beat them while yelling about God, making the child equate God with the pain and suffering inflicted upon them, and on and on it goes.....valid reasons why someone might never develop spiritually enough to become a believer in Christ.

You can't just choose one or two groups of people that YOU have mercy on and think those are the only groups God is willing to forgive solely based on the blood of Jesus. You should realize that His blood is powerful enough to save everyone, and God is merciful enough to save everyone, and He will accomplish His will.

God does the saving. It is a complete work of God. If people can save themselves by simply making a wise choice, Jesus didn't need to die. Jesus died to save mankind and He will not fail. You reap what you sow and since no one can sow setting someone on fire for eternity, then they can't reap that!
What a wonderful post BHFT...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2011, 11:57 PM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
Reputation: 7507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
[/b]

Mike, you are just and fair enough to believe what you said here, even though it's not found in scripture. But, God is WAY more just and fair than you or anyone else. He is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we can ask or think. I believe God will also show mercy to those who never developed sufficiently spiritually to be able to come to conceive of the concept and existence of a supreme being.

This might be someone who was raised by atheists, or a person who honored their father and mother by adhering strictly to the non-Christian religion that was required to be accepted in the family, or a person whose religious parents beat them while yelling about God, making the child equate God with the pain and suffering inflicted upon them, and on and on it goes.....valid reasons why someone might never develop spiritually enough to become a believer in Christ.

You can't just choose one or two groups of people that YOU have mercy on and think those are the only groups God is willing to forgive solely based on the blood of Jesus. You should realize that His blood is powerful enough to save everyone, and God is merciful enough to save everyone, and He will accomplish His will.

God does the saving. It is a complete work of God. If people can save themselves by simply making a wise choice, Jesus didn't need to die. Jesus died to save mankind and He will not fail. You reap what you sow and since no one can sow setting someone on fire for eternity, then they can't reap that!
Anyone who has the mental capacity to understand the concept of the existence of a supreme being is held accountable by God.

The scriptures are clear that a decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior in order to receive eternal life. Only those who are unable to come to the point of God consciousness are automatically saved.

Exercising faith in Christ is a non-meritorious act. The one who believes takes no credit. Ephesians 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 9] not as a result of works, that no man should boast. It is plainly stated that salvation is the result of placing your faith in Christ, and that you can take no credit for it.

Salvation is the work of God. The gift of salvation is offered to all. But salvation is obtained only though faith in Christ. Again, the scriptures are absolutely clear on this. Only someone who does not believe what the Bible says would deny that. You do not save yourself by believing in Christ. It is God who saves. Personal faith in Jesus Christ is the means of reaching out to take the free gift of salvation that God offers. Salvation is only possible because of what Christ did on the cross. But apart from personal faith in Christ no one can appropriate what Christ did for them.

God's mercy is such that He gave His uniquely born Son to die on the cross for the sins of the world. But when Christ is rejected, then God's justice must come into play and judge those who reject what Jesus did on their behalf.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-05-2011 at 12:22 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:15 AM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
Reputation: 7507
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike, I'm so sure of what the soul is that I am as confident that God is Almighty enought to save everyone. I know your not that confident.
You are wrong on both counts. You have no idea what the soul is, and God will not save everybody. Your confidence in what you believe is based on your flagrant disregard for what the scriptures say and on your ability to delude yourself into believing what you want to believe regardless of its relationship to reality.

The soul is immortal and survives the death of the body. Now I have given the scriptures which make this obvious on post #82. Anyone who hasn't seen that post may wish to do so now.

Trettep, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. That is between you and God. It is to Him you must answer. I will not keep going back and forth on this, as that serves no purpose. I have presented the pertinent Scriptures regarding the immortality of the soul, again on post #82 and I will leave it at that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:29 AM
 
5,754 posts, read 4,605,909 times
Reputation: 4181
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
What a great post, BHFT. There are many around the world who can only equate religion with great turmoil and suffering. For good reason. And they had to walk away from the pain. There are also plenty of people who can't even conceive of something good out there. They can't possibly imagine it. All they've seen is destruction, mayhem, confusion, darkness, and sadness. And even the natural world screams madness to them. Earthquakes, tornadoes, violent outer space, volcanoes, hurricanes, etc.

I don't blame people for not understanding. I really don't.

I just can't imagine God (love) telling them to take a hike into even more torment. No wonder people just can't take it any more.
Exactly my thoughts. Have a person grow up in a dark, cold room with no windows, would it be any wonder that this person wouldn't believe in the sun??
The complexity of this life and the innumerable life circumstances/scenarios that there are...
I mean, it just seems so absurd to me that there is this belief that this life is just about some "choice" they need to hurry up and make over their eternal destiny before they die.

I am certain that we will be shown so many things. Like the things you are talking about, herefornow. I always think about those folks who don't believe in God but actually turn out to be greater followers of God (love) than some of those who profess to believe. That one comes to mind every day. Because truth isn't some flimsy label you attach to yourself. Truth isn't dependent on our thoughts/beliefs. Truth isn't just a word with no meaning behind it. If someone is following LOVE, they are following God. They may not YET understand the SOURCE... where LOVE ultimately comes from. But they will more quickly recognize God, quicker than a person who professes to "believe in God" yet does not love.

Another one is those who went the furthest in the darkness probably had the least amount of GOD (love) shown to them, so is it any wonder they were in the darkness if they were so FAR from the light...? The ones among the MOST in need of healing... instead of that healing, they will be tortured forever or just snuffed out like they were nothing? This is what CONFUSION does. It just multiplies itself until NOTHING makes sense. Human beings are really confused. The light conquers darkness. Love conquers non-love. Love your neighbor as yourself! Such a simple, LIFE-Changing, WORLD-changing MESSAGE. And still... here we are... because we just don't seem to be able to BELIEVE it. We won't trust it. We won't FOLLOW it. It's SO simple. A child could understand.

So many variables, so much complexity... we're here to learn. There is so much to learn. This "you must choose christ to go to heaven, or don't and go to eternal hell" thing, really needs to just die into the dust, already. I mean it is 2011. That is something that REALLY needs to pick up the pace on that "wide road to destruction". It needs to start power walking, jogging, or better yet running on that road. It creates so much confusion and diverts so much attention away from the truth that GOD IS LOVE. If people really started to believe that, how much the world would change. If they really did believe that their Creator loved them. If all of us really did just love our neighbor as ourselves.
Well, there is a lot of love in the world.
And a lot of people are already loving their neighbor as theirself.
We may not be there yet, but it's our future.
Because love conquers all.
It's the non-love on that wide road to destruction.
Doesn't mean we can't hurry it along, though.


I understand your passion, herefornow. and I love you for it.

Peace friend,
sparrow
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,392,517 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are wrong on both counts. You have no idea what the soul is, and God will not save everybody. Your confidence in what you believe is based on your flagrant disregard for what the scriptures say and on your ability to delude yourself into believing what you want to believe regardless of its relationship to reality.

The soul is immortal and survives the death of the body. Now I have given the scriptures which make this obvious on post #82. Anyone who hasn't seen that post may wish to do so now.

Trettep, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. That is between you and God. It is to Him you must answer. I will not keep going back and forth on this, as that serves no purpose. I have presented the pertinent Scriptures regarding the immortality of the soul, again on post #82 and I will leave it at that.
All I know is that the Bible says there is no thought where we go after we die. God alone is immortal. This is all throughout scripture (excluding the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man which contradicts hundreds of other scriptures for a reason).


Plato liked to think the soul was immortal, though.

Here's some info about how the word "soul" was used in the Bible: L. Ray Smith - Exposing Those Who Contradict

This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory. The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top