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Old 01-07-2011, 08:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Ilene, I would love more than anything to get my hands on the purest translation of the scriptures in existence. And I would love to know how much Matthew, in writing his gospel, allowed the fact that he was writing his account specifically for the Jews to influence the picture he was painting of Jesus and the Father. That was a little convoluted. Better explained: I'd read that Matthew was writing his account expressly for the Jewish population; is it possible his portrait of Jesus, especially in chapter 25, was deliberately skewed in order to scare the Jews into acceptance of Jesus as their Saviour? Or maybe He didn't say any of that at all. How do we know the whole hateful chapter wasn't added by some kooky ET'er in the emerging Catholic Apostolic religion circa 400 AD and just kept in there by all those hundreds of later translations? Note the foolish virgins were nowhere near as wicked as the prodigal son--they were just foolish, yet Jesus says to them, "I do not know you" and casts them into the outer darkness where they will wail and gnash their teeth for all eternity, according to the account (actually all three accounts in Chap. 25) On the other hand we have the Father saying to the prodigal, "I don't care what you've done, I don't care what you've not done, all that is forgotten, just come back to my house and let me receive you as my son again." How beautiful. (tears of joy) And how totally in line with the Good Shepherd parable.

I truthfully wish Matthew Chapter 25 would just go away because I don't believe it is an accurate description of what Jesus was really saying, or if He said any of it at all. Note, even Mike acknowledges that Ecclesiastes is coming from the pen of a fallen, reprobate Solomon in his last years. Surely no other book deserves less to be included in "Holy" scripture than Ecclesiastes. And yet there it is, included in the Bible when other much more inspired writings were excluded. You see how man just mucks up everything he touches? He couldn't even get the bible put together right. And Matthew chapter 25 is probably responsible for more people being turned off to the gospel (good news) of Jesus than any other writing in the history of mankind.

We do not have, best to my knowledge, a perfectly preserved copy of the original gospel of Matthew, do we? So can we really know how badly this particular gospel has been tampered with?
The Gospel of Matthew we have today is not the Gospel which Matthew wrote to the Hebrews. The gospel of Matthew we have today was originally written in Greek and is nearly a word for word copy of the gospel of mark with a few scenes added, such as the nativity.

The gospel of Matthew as we have it today was not widely accepted as a legitimate gospel in the first few centuries. It is important to realize that the writer of the book of Matthew that we have in out new testament cannon was not the apostle Matthew.

Quote:
"It is the near-universal position of scholarship that the Gospel of Matthew is dependent upon the Gospel of Mark. This position is accepted whether one subscribes to the dominant Two-Source Hypothesis or instead prefers the Farrer-Goulder hypothesis."

From Gospel of Matthew
Quote:
Today, most critical scholarship agrees that Matthew did not write the Gospel which bears his name,[20][21] and prefer instead to describe the author as an anonymous Jewish Christian, writing towards the end of the 1st century.

From Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However, even though the gospel of Matthew we have today is not a first hand account of the words and deeds of Christ, or even likely a second hand account for that matter, and though it is most likely not as accurate as the other gospels, the gospel of Matthew in the original Greek nevertheless does not apparently teach ET or annihilation. The simple fact is that the gospel of Matthew uses the same terminology for judgment that the other four gospels do, in the words "aionios Kolasin", which literally means "correction/chastisement of the age(s)".

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-07-2011 at 08:42 AM..
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,459 posts, read 21,199,786 times
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Originally Posted by sschulz View Post

Much as I might like to think we go straight to heaven I know we will sleep in sheol til Christ comes again. The good news is because there is no perseption in sheol, no sense of time. we will have our last thought before we die and the very next thing we will see will be Christ Jesus. no matter if it has been hundreds or thousands of years to us it will be the blink of an eye.
That is also what I believe..

It will seem as a "blink of the eye" as in awaking from a deep sleep with no dreams or any perception of time.
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The Gospel of Matthew we have today is not the Gospel which Matthew wrote to the Hebrews. The gospel of Matthew we have today was originally written in Greek and is nearly a word for word copy of the gospel of mark with a few scenes added, such as the nativity.

The gospel of Matthew as we have it today was not widely accepted as a legitimate gospel in the first few centuries. It is important to realize that the writer of the book of Matthew that we have in out new testament cannon was not the apostle Matthew.





However, even though the gospel of Matthew we have today is not a first hand account of the words and deeds of Christ, or even likely a second hand account for that matter, and though it is most likely not as accurate as the other gospels, the gospel of Matthew in the original Greek nevertheless does not apparently teach ET or annihilation. The simple fact is that the gospel of Matthew uses the same terminology for judgment that the other four gospels do, in the words "aionios Kolasin", which literally means "correction/chastisement of the age(s)".
thank you for addressing that issue, Ironmaw. I'd bet 99.999% of Christians are not even aware that this is NOT the Matthew who walked with our Lord; that a full text of the gospel does not emerge until hundreds to a millennium years after Jesus was on earth; that it had undergone innumerable copies and translations before then; that the Bible as we know it today was NOT assembled in one gathering by wise and learned men who were in communication with the Holy Spirit. We picture this gathering like the Constitutional Convention where everything was done in one or two fell swoops and it was nothing like that. Our Bible was assembled over innumerable councils, secret meetings, official and unofficial gatherings, etc over a period of roughly 1600 years. Book were added, then yanked; other were hidden from view because they contradicted the emerging dogma of the Church; others were included for no other reason than a particular group of powerful men liked them. Just the fact that James and Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch is enough to demonstrate that it should have been included, but the book was branded anathema by a group of self-serving men because of the extraordinary, otherworldly details it went into. By God's grace, though not by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we have what we have today, considering the enormous odds against putting together a mishmash of torn-up, molding, fragmented writing that could not even be accurately traced back to any reliable sources, in many cases.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:15 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
thank you for addressing that issue, Ironmaw. I'd bet 99.999% of Christians are not even aware that this is NOT the Matthew who walked with our Lord; that a full text of the gospel does not emerge until hundreds to a millennium years after Jesus was on earth; that it had undergone innumerable copies and translations before then; that the Bible as we know it today was NOT assembled in one gathering by wise and learned men who were in communication with the Holy Spirit. We picture this gathering like the Constitutional Convention where everything was done in one or two fell swoops and it was nothing like that. Our Bible was assembled over innumerable councils, secret meetings, official and unofficial gatherings, etc over a period of roughly 1600 years. Book were added, then yanked; other were hidden from view because they contradicted the emerging dogma of the Church; others were included for no other reason than a particular group of powerful men liked them. Just the fact that James and Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch is enough to demonstrate that it should have been included, but the book was branded anathema by a group of self-serving men because of the extraordinary, otherworldly details it went into. By God's grace, though not by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we have what we have today, considering the enormous odds against putting together a mishmash of torn-up, molding, fragmented writing that could not even be accurately traced back to any reliable sources, in many cases.
You mean Jude and 2nd Peter, right? And maybe Enoch should have been made a part of the cannon, or 2nd Peter and Jude should not have been.

2nd Peter is almost certainly not written by the apostle Peter as well. It is almost certainly pseudepigraphical. One thing is for certain, whoever wrote second Peter was not the same person who wrote 1st Peter, the writing and the language are completely different.

Many scholars believe that both Jude and 2nd Peter were actually written by the same person, and it was neither Jude the brother of Jesus or Peter who wrote them.


Epistle of Jude

2 Peter

Epistle of James
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi Mike Finally able to respond to your post back to me.

I disagree that ressurection is only of the body and not the soul like you do. I believe that the soul that sins dies just like it says and that the ressurection is of the essence of us which is in SHEOL. the body doesn't go to sheol it is still in the physical world.

When God said you will die he did not say your body will die but you will live in spirit. When Moses dies God said my servent Moses is dead, not that my servant Moses is now with me.

If our soul is in heaven why do we need to come back and get a body that is physical, change it to a spiritual body when we are already with God? What are we just floating around heaven with no body or what.

When we die, we die no more thought or awareness, no more life, we are dead and our only hope is the resssurection brought about by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus our saviour.

Much as I might like to think we go straight to heaven I know we will sleep in sheol til Christ comes again. The good news is because there is no perseption in sheol, no sense of time. we will have our last thought before we die and the very next thing we will see will be Christ Jesus. no matter if it has been hundreds or thousands of years to us it will be the blink of an eye.
In various posts I have shown passage after passage after passage which make it clear that there is no such thing as soul sleep. I have already addressed the questions you are again asking in this post. I have shown Matthew 10:28 which flat out tells you that the soul does not cease to exist when the body dies. I have shown passages which show the soul of the believer in heaven.

As for the distinction between the grave and Sheol/Hades feel free to go to this thread of mine: Tartarus, Sheol/Hades, and Gehenna

From what I have presented on this thread, in posts # 77, 82, 103, 134, and 146, and on the thread The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment in post #97 there should be no doubt in the mind of anyone who believes in Christ that there is no such thing as soul sleep. Every believer goes immediately into the presence of the Lord in heaven.

However, all I can do is present the facts. I can't make anyone believe anything. It is up to those reading this to be objective and open their mind-gate and perceive, comprehend what has been said.

Believe what you wish.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:43 AM
 
20,296 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
From the OP...



I agree - which is why I disappear from time to time - it gets frustrating.

I plan to do my part in my own way this year to put out solid biblical posts and hopefully help others (and myself) to lean more on Christ and learn more about Christ.
That's a worthwhile goal. I wish you success.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:17 AM
 
20,296 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You mean Jude and 2nd Peter, right? And maybe Enoch should have been made a part of the cannon, or 2nd Peter and Jude should not have been.

2nd Peter is almost certainly not written by the apostle Peter as well. It is almost certainly pseudepigraphical. One thing is for certain, whoever wrote second Peter was not the same person who wrote 1st Peter, the writing and the language are completely different.

Many scholars believe that both Jude and 2nd Peter were actually written by the same person, and it was neither Jude the brother of Jesus or Peter who wrote them.


Epistle of Jude

2 Peter

Epistle of James
Both 1 and 2 Peter were written by the apostle Peter. And it is not pseudepigraphical. The reason that Peter's writing style was different in 2 Peter is that he was writing elliptically. Peter was writing excitedly. He had things to say and knew that his death was near (2 Peter 1:13-15). Peter was not trying to teach anything new. He was reminding in 2 Peter, those things of which he had previously taught. He wanted to make sure that these things were not forgotten.

2 Peter 1:12 'Therefore, I shall always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling (his body) is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.

2 Peter 3:1 'This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2] that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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I think if the OP has taught me anything here it is that the word of universalism needs to be spread to Brenham, Texas. So if your a universalist you might want to find out what community pages there are for that town and post where available. Maybe find local universities to get the message to.
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:52 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Both 1 and 2 Peter were written by the apostle Peter. And it is not pseudepigraphical. The reason that Peter's writing style was different in 2 Peter is that he was writing elliptically. Peter was writing excitedly. He had things to say and knew that his death was near (2 Peter 1:13-15). Peter was not trying to teach anything new. He was reminding in 2 Peter, those things of which he had previously taught. He wanted to make sure that these things were not forgotten.

2 Peter 1:12 'Therefore, I shall always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling (his body) is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.

2 Peter 3:1 'This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2] that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
Thats your professional scholarly opinion right?
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