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Old 01-04-2011, 12:49 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What I am telling you is that either word, pneuma or psuche could have been used in the passage.

Though not always interchangable, there are instances in the Bible where soul and spirit are synonymous terms.

For instance, the same function may be ascribed to each.
Example:
Matthew 26:38 'Then He said to them, ''My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death...''

John 13:21 'When Jesus said this, He became troubled in spirit.


The departed are sometimes mentioned as soul and sometimes as spirit.
John 10:17 ''For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My Psuche - life, soul, breath.
Matthew 27:50 'And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His pneuma - spirit, wind, breath.

God is said to be soul:
Hebrews 10:38 ''BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL - PSUCHE HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

John 4:24 ''God is Spirit - pneuma, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.''

When techical distinctions are in view the terms soul and Spirit are not interchangeable.

Example:
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'' In this passage spirit could not be substituted for soul.

Romans 8:10 'And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.' In this passage, soul could not be substituted for spirit.

Soul connotes that in the immaterial part of man which is related to life, action, emotion, whereas spirit is that part within man which is related to worship, communion, divine influence.

The point is you conveniently translate the word Pneuma, which is the word used in that verse (not psuche from whence is derived the word psyche, i.e. mind or soul), in a way that agrees with your traditional interpretation of scriptures.

And if you had a knowledge of the pre-Christian Jewish mysteries(ma 'aseh Merkaba Beres*it) you would know that there are three aspects to the soul of all humans. The nephesh which is the animal soul that animates the body and controls all autonomic functions, is the seat of the instinct, then there is ruwach, the human spirit which gives to all humans the powers of reason and faith, and finally Neshamah, the seat of the divine spirit, or that part of our human spirit that can be joined together with the spirit of God, other wise known as the divine breath of life.

Ruwach(spirit) is like a glue that connects neshamah(human soul) to Nephesh(animal soul and thus the body).

All humans have every aspect of the soul according to the mysteries of ancient Israel.

In Christianity, the Nephesh(animal soul) that sins dies, and when the nephesh dies along with the body which returns to dust, then the spirit(ruwach) returns to God who gave it(Ezekiel 18:20).

Of course it is obvious that you really have no concept of what the ancient Israelites believed before the times of Christ, or what they believe now for that matter. And so you are confused by the pagan traditions of men which crept into the church hundreds of years after Christ, such as the false doctrine that all non-Christians have no spirit, an idea that made genocide and torture and the murder of millions of otherwise innocent people over the past 1700+ years seem just and acceptable. The same false doctrine that made people from the west think that it was okay to murder and steal from the native Americans when they decided to settle the Americas. Its The same idea that Hitler believed when he murder and tortured millions of Jews whom he believed were less than human, i.e had no human spirit.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-04-2011 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
That is not what the scriptures show. A soul is the combination of a body and spirit.
To the contrary. The Scriptures emphatically show the division of the body, soul, and human spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercng even to the dividing asnder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In Matthew 10:28 it is seen that the soul survives the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'' This is in reference to the unbeliever who will end up in the lake of fire. It is seen that though man can kill the body, man cannot kill the soul. The soul continues to live on after the body has died. Jesus can destroy the soul in hell, but destuction does not mean annihilation. It means that the soul of the unbeliever will forever exist in a state of ruin and uselessness in the lake of fire in conscious suffering.

See also the following passages.

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

And refer to my other thread on the subject.

The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment

Now, as amazing as it seems, there are people who in spite of all these passages will still deny that the soul which is the real person, is separate from the body and continues on in conscious existence.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I don't need to wade through a bunch of posts when I got the Word of God. It is clearly the grave and interpreted the Grave often.

Here is everywhere that Hades is used:

Gen_37:35; Gen_42:38; Gen_44:29; Gen_44:31; Num_16:30; Num_16:33; 1Sa_2:6; 1Ki_2:6; 1Ki_2:9; Job_7:9; Job_11:8; Job_14:13; Job_17:13; Job_17:16; Job_21:13; Job_26:6; Job_33:22; Job_38:17; Psa_6:5; Psa_9:17; Psa_16:10; Psa_18:5; Psa_30:3; Psa_31:17; Psa_49:14; Psa_49:15; Psa_55:15; Psa_86:13; Psa_88:3; Psa_89:48; Psa_94:17; Psa_115:17; Psa_116:3; Psa_139:8; Psa_141:7; Pro_1:12; Pro_2:18; Pro_5:5; Pro_7:27; Pro_9:18; Pro_14:12; Pro_15:11; Pro_15:24; Pro_16:25; Pro_27:20; Pro_30:16; Ecc_9:10; Son_8:6; Isa_5:14; Isa_14:9; Isa_14:11; Isa_14:15; Isa_14:19; Isa_28:15; Isa_28:18; Isa_38:10; Isa_38:18; Isa_57:9; Eze_31:15; Eze_31:16; Eze_31:17; Eze_32:27; Hos_13:14; Amo_9:2; Jon_2:2; Hab_2:5; Mat_11:23; Mat_16:18; Luk_10:15; Luk_16:23; Act_2:27; Act_2:31; Rev_1:18; Rev_6:8; Rev_20:13; Rev_20:14;
Forget the translations. In the original Hebrew and Greek, Sheol/Hades is where the soul of both believer and unbeliever went after death, before the resurrection of Christ, and where unbelievers still go.

I gave you the link to my thread which covered this. You say you have no interest in going into it. Very well. Conversation over!!!
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Mike,
once you get the baptism in the Holy Ghost you'll understand my posts better.

Peace,
brian
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Just being the devils advocate here but that pastor, also human, also subject to different interpretations, as you say, that's human nature.

It may have made a great deal of sense, he may have been an outstanding teacher, but there comes that human nature part again. Someone with diametrically different interpretations may feel exactly the same about the pastor they learned from, and felt their pastor was truly prepared.

This is part of the reason as an Atheist I sit and marvel at the squabbling from christians that are supposed to be reading from the same book. It also amplifies the danger of giving too much value to your bible, as it is clearly used as a tool to push forward preconceived ideas and agendas.

Normally one would say that only one side can be right, but what if neither is right?
With continued growth he discovered that a few things that he taught early in his ministry were wrong and corrected that teaching.

God didn't design the Bible to be incomprehensible. He meant for it to be understood. God gives the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher to certain men, who must then prepare and study hard to be able to dig out what is in the scriptures and teach it. Most pastors don't fulfill their duty to God. But God always sees to it that in every generation there are prepared men who will study and teach, study and teach.

The Bible is clear for example that the soul survives the death of the body. Yet many will take a few scriptures that they don't understand and come to a false belief of soul sleep. See post #82 on this thread for some of the passages that make it obvious that the soul survives the death of the body. And yet, people will still deny it. Human nature.

It is up to those who study the word of God to be objective. Not subjective.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:33 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The point is you conveniently translate the word Pneuma, which is the word used in that verse (not psuche from whence is derived the word psyche, i.e. mind or soul), in a way that agrees with your traditional interpretation of scriptures.

And if you had a knowledge of the pre-Christian Jewish mysteries(ma 'aseh Merkaba Beres*it) you would know that there are three aspects to the soul of all humans. The nephesh which is the animal soul that animates the body and controls all autonomic functions, is the seat of the instinct, then there is ruwach, the human spirit which gives to all humans the powers of reason and faith, and finally Neshamah, the seat of the divine spirit, or that part of our human spirit that can be joined together with the spirit of God, other wise known as the divine breath of life.

Ruwach(spirit) is like a glue that connects neshamah(human soul) to Nephesh(animal soul and thus the body).

All humans have every aspect of the soul according to the mysteries of ancient Israel.

In Christianity, the Nephesh(animal soul) that sins dies, and when the nephesh dies along with the body which returns to dust, then the spirit(ruwach) returns to God who gave it(Ezekiel 18:20).

Of course it is obvious that you really have no concept of what the ancient Israelites believed before the times of Christ, or what they believe now for that matter. And so you are confused by the pagan traditions of men which crept into the church hundreds of years after Christ, such as the false doctrine that all non-Christians have no spirit, an idea that made genocide and torture and the murder of millions of otherwise innocent people over the past 1700+ years seem just and acceptable. The same false doctrine that made people from the west think that it was okay to murder and steal from the native Americans when they decided to settle the Americas. Its The same idea that Hitler believed when he murder and tortured millions of Jews whom he believed were less than human, i.e had no human spirit.
I have provided you with what the scriptures say. I have shown that the Bible often uses soul and spirit interchangably.

What you choose to believe is your affair. It is no concern of mine.

Readers may refer back to post #77.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:44 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Mike,
once you get the baptism in the Holy Ghost you'll understand my posts better.

Peace,
brian
The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at the point of salvation. At the very beginning of the church-age there were a few exceptions. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enters the believer into union with Jesus Christ (1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:26,27; Eph 4:5).

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience. It is not something that is felt. Apart from the Scriptures there would be no knowledge of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,108,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at the point of salvation. At the very beginning of the church-age there were a few exceptions. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enters the believer into union with Jesus Christ (1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:26,27; Eph 4:5).

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience. It is not something that is felt. Apart from the Scriptures there would be no knowledge of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
No Mike, it's a precise experience which I can see you haven't had yet. Once you have it, you will know what I say is the truth.
Obviously if you've never had it, you would day yhat it doesn't exist. The same is true for the atheist who doesn't believe there's a God-- until He shows up.

Blessings to you,
brian
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:14 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have provided you with what the scriptures say. I have shown that the Bible often uses soul and spirit interchangably.

What you choose to believe is your affair. It is no concern of mine.

Readers may refer back to post #77.
You have certainly provided me with the erroneous traditional fundamentalist interpretations of the scriptures to which you subscribe, and the fact that you believe in pagan myths is really no concern of mine, however i will continue attempt to expose and correct your errors whenever it is appropriate.
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Old 01-04-2011, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,483 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
There are plenty of other Christian sites that would be glad to have you, I'm sure.
Gee, thanks, and I am sure there are some that would be glad to have you, but what has that got to do with anything?
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