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Old 01-04-2011, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Since we got off topic on the annihilation thread, I thought I'd start a new thread on perfection and what it meant to the Hebrews/Jews and what it meant to the NT church in it's early days . Moderator cut: edit

You don't need to go to Tentmaker to find a couple of facts concerning the word "perfect" in the Bible. Here is a simple explanation from crivoice.org: The English Term 'Perfect': Biblical and Philosophical Tensions


When David said he was blameless and when Abraham was called "perfect," nobody (I hope) believes they were Jesus (who was the only perfect human being). So, what did this word mean? It meant that these guys emptied themselves and leaned completely on God, and for us it means to empty ourselves (like Jesus did) and lean completely on God, his Son and HIS righteousness for our perfection.

Only then will we learn what grace is.

(I still think Tentmaker did a great job explaining all of this)

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-04-2011 at 06:36 PM.. Reason: Let them answer again if they choose to, lest they accuse you of calling them out :)
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:50 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,375,005 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Since we got off topic on the annihilation thread, I thought I'd start a new thread on perfection and what it meant to the Hebrews/Jews and what it meant to the NT church in it's early days . Moderator cut: edit

You don't need to go to Tentmaker to find a couple of facts concerning the word "perfect" in the Bible. Here is a simple explanation from crivoice.org: The English Term 'Perfect': Biblical and Philosophical Tensions


When David said he was blameless and when Abraham was called "perfect," nobody (I hope) believes they were Jesus (who was the only perfect human being). So, what did this word mean? It meant that these guys emptied themselves and leaned completely on God, and for us it means to empty ourselves (like Jesus did) and lean completely on God, his Son and HIS righteousness for our perfection.

Only then will we learn what grace is.

(I still think Tentmaker did a great job explaining all of this)
No biggie Miss Blue.

Heyas Brian. Check this thread out. It may answer your questions, although some of my posts are in my 'growth' stage, I still agree with Freedom, and with the perfection doctrines.

Perfect
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Old 01-04-2011, 08:07 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,250 posts, read 20,001,723 times
Reputation: 2109
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Since we got off topic on the annihilation thread, I thought I'd start a new thread on perfection and what it meant to the Hebrews/Jews and what it meant to the NT church in it's early days . Moderator cut: edit

You don't need to go to Tentmaker to find a couple of facts concerning the word "perfect" in the Bible. Here is a simple explanation from crivoice.org: The English Term 'Perfect': Biblical and Philosophical Tensions


When David said he was blameless and when Abraham was called "perfect," nobody (I hope) believes they were Jesus (who was the only perfect human being). So, what did this word mean? It meant that these guys emptied themselves and leaned completely on God, and for us it means to empty ourselves (like Jesus did) and lean completely on God, his Son and HIS righteousness for our perfection.

Only then will we learn what grace is.

(I still think Tentmaker did a great job explaining all of this)
Hi Herefornow good post.

I am of the persuasion that the more we learn of and understand his grace,and more importantly his grace towards us, we become perfect in the sense that you rightly described.
You could say perfection comes from confidence in his grace.

Last edited by pcamps; 01-04-2011 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 08:47 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,821,504 times
Reputation: 1302
In the OT, God commanded the children Israel:

Leviticus 11:45
I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

Leviticus 19:2
“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.'


The command is in the present tense "be" not "become". Jesus phrased it the same way:

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of ..... because these are improper for God’s holy people

Colossians 1:2
To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse:

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved

1 Thessalonians 3:13
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.




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Old 01-04-2011, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,050,871 times
Reputation: 7707
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
In the OT, God commanded the children Israel:

Leviticus 11:45
I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

Leviticus 19:2
“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.'


The command is in the present tense "be" not "become". Jesus phrased it the same way:
Quote:
Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
The word translated as perfect in this passage (both times) means to be complete; finished, brought to it's end. And, that's exactly how God sees us after Salvation: It's a finished work, so far as He's concerned, and we need to nothing more to perfect ourselves.

What is does NOT mean is that we are expected to live perfectly, sin-free lives. Not only is that a physical impossibility, but if we could do that under our own power and authority, we wouldn't need a Savior. That's never been God's plan.

Quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of ..... because these are improper for God’s holy people

Colossians 1:2
To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse:

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved

1 Thessalonians 3:13
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.




All thos other verses direct us to be "holy."

In the OT, the Hebrew word translated as holy means sacred, set apart. The Jews were sacred and set apart because they were, and are, the Chosen of God. They did nothing to set themselves apart and they were hardly worthy of being designated as God's vehicle for speaking to mankind. Their holiness derives solely and completely from the will of God. As Believers, we are grafted into the vine of the Chosen People and heirs to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so that's the definition of our holiness too.

I don't know what Bible translation you're using, but I can't find those NT verses in my King James. However, it doesn't matter for our purposes right now because, with only a few exceptions, every rendering of the Greek word translated as "holy" in the New Testament is the same word, with the same meaning, in whatever context it's used. It means a most holy thing, a saint. We are designated as "saints" not by anything we've done except accepting Christ's payment of our sin debt. We are only "saints" because God chooses to make us so.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Hi Herefornow good post.

I am of the persuasion that the more we learn of and understand his grace,and more importantly his grace towards us, we become perfect in the sense that you rightly described.
You could say perfection comes from confidence in his grace.
I'm only now coming to understand what all of this means. Growing up in a very patriotic, conservative church/school, I never quite got it. I wonder why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
The word translated as perfect in this passage (both times) means to be complete; finished, brought to it's end. And, that's exactly how God sees us after Salvation: It's a finished work, so far as He's concerned, and we need to nothing more to perfect ourselves.

What is does NOT mean is that we are expected to live perfectly, sin-free lives. Not only is that a physical impossibility, but if we could do that under our own power and authority, we wouldn't need a Savior. That's never been God's plan.




All thos other verses direct us to be "holy."

In the OT, the Hebrew word translated as holy means sacred, set apart. The Jews were sacred and set apart because they were, and are, the Chosen of God. They did nothing to set themselves apart and they were hardly worthy of being designated as God's vehicle for speaking to mankind. Their holiness derives solely and completely from the will of God. As Believers, we are grafted into the vine of the Chosen People and heirs to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so that's the definition of our holiness too.

I don't know what Bible translation you're using, but I can't find those NT verses in my King James. However, it doesn't matter for our purposes right now because, with only a few exceptions, every rendering of the Greek word translated as "holy" in the New Testament is the same word, with the same meaning, in whatever context it's used. It means a most holy thing, a saint. We are designated as "saints" not by anything we've done except accepting Christ's payment of our sin debt. We are only "saints" because God chooses to make us so.
Ah! Great reply. Thank you.
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:16 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,821,504 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
The word translated as perfect in this passage (both times) means to be complete; finished, brought to it's end. And, that's exactly how God sees us after Salvation: It's a finished work, so far as He's concerned, and we need to nothing more to perfect ourselves.

What is does NOT mean is that we are expected to live perfectly, sin-free lives. Not only is that a physical impossibility, but if we could do that under our own power and authority, we wouldn't need a Savior. That's never been God's plan.




All thos other verses direct us to be "holy."

In the OT, the Hebrew word translated as holy means sacred, set apart. The Jews were sacred and set apart because they were, and are, the Chosen of God. They did nothing to set themselves apart and they were hardly worthy of being designated as God's vehicle for speaking to mankind. Their holiness derives solely and completely from the will of God. As Believers, we are grafted into the vine of the Chosen People and heirs to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so that's the definition of our holiness too.

I don't know what Bible translation you're using, but I can't find those NT verses in my King James. However, it doesn't matter for our purposes right now because, with only a few exceptions, every rendering of the Greek word translated as "holy" in the New Testament is the same word, with the same meaning, in whatever context it's used. It means a most holy thing, a saint. We are designated as "saints" not by anything we've done except accepting Christ's payment of our sin debt. We are only "saints" because God chooses to make us so.
I normally use the NIV (1984 edition) .......

I understand what you're saying, the only thing that I was pointing out that trying to "become" it is actually rejecting the Savior.

Perfection is either all or nothing concept and that is what faith in Jesus is all about.




"Be" perfect
  • is only achieved by faith in Jesus.
  • not by anything we've done except accepting Christ's payment of our sin debt
  • As far as He's concerned, we need to do nothing more to perfect ourselves.... It's a finished work.
Trying "become" perfect:
  • normally involves the belief that:
    • Christ's payment of our sin debt has conditions to it
      • forgiveness is contingent on human feelings
    • we need to do more to perfect ourselves...i.e.
      • obeying the law
      • proving ourself worthy
      • doing good works
People who don't understand this just go berserk. They say..."So you're saying you're P E R F E C T...?!

Aaaah ... ya that's exactly how God sees us, we are only "perfect" by faith because that is the will of God to make us so. John 6:40


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

That is why those who reject Jesus .... reject the eternal perfection and are held accountable. They will be considered as eternal imperfect and be rewarded for being such. Matthew 25:41-46, John 3:36

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-05-2011 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,050,871 times
Reputation: 7707
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I normally use the NIV (1984 edition) .......

I understand what you're saying, the only thing that I was pointing out that trying to "become" it is actually rejecting the Savior.

Perfection is either all or nothing concept and that is what faith in Jesus is all about.



"Be" perfect
  • is only achieved by faith in Jesus.
  • not by anything we've done except accepting Christ's payment of our sin debt
  • As far as He's concerned, we need to do nothing more to perfect ourselves.... It's a finished work.
Trying "become" perfect:
  • normally involves the belief that:
    • Christ's payment of our sin debt has conditions to it
      • forgiveness is contingent on human feelings
    • we need to do more to perfect ourselves...i.e.
      • obeying the law
      • proving ourself worthy
      • doing good works
People who don't understand this just go berserk. They say..."So you're saying you're P E R F E C T...?!

Aaaah ... ya that's exactly how God sees us, we are only "perfect" because God chooses to make us so.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

That is why those who reject Jesus .... reject the eternal perfection and are held accountable. They will be considered as eternal imperfect and be rewarded for being such.
That's right, but it's a doctrine which few understand or even want to understand. It "feels" so much more "Christian" when one is struggling against sin in their own power and hypocritically looking down their noses at those who aren't as "successful."

Paul warned us in Galatian's 5 that if we commit to keeping even one item of the law, we make ourselves debtors to the whole law and, as he puts it, we fall from Grace. In fact, he said, we make Christ of no effect to us. That's a pretty serious warning. Consider the implications of making Christ of no effect to us!

That's not a license to sin, but simply an acknowledgement that sin is our nature, a nature which can ONLY be overcome by the power of the Spirit and only then as God allows it for His purposes. We either trust in Christ for our salvation, or we don't. There is no middle ground.
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,821,504 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
That's right, but it's a doctrine which few understand or even want to understand. It "feels" so much more "Christian" when one is struggling against sin in their own power and hypocritically looking down their noses at those who aren't as "successful."

Paul warned us in Galatian's 5 that if we commit to keeping even one item of the law, we make ourselves debtors to the whole law and, as he puts it, we fall from Grace. In fact, he said, we make Christ of no effect to us. That's a pretty serious warning. Consider the implications of making Christ of no effect to us!

That's not a license to sin, but simply an acknowledgement that sin is our nature, a nature which can ONLY be overcome by the power of the Spirit and only then as God allows it for His purposes. We either trust in Christ for our salvation, or we don't. There is no middle ground.
Wow....it's refreshing to hear that.
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:35 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
Reputation: 989
Doesn't the Greek word teleios behind "perfect" have the idea of "mature"? "of age"?
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