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Old 01-06-2011, 06:48 AM
 
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Some theologians and lexicons say Plato used aionion as "eternal" and just reference Plato's kronos part in Timaeus. However, if they really took the time to really read and understand the part called "KRONOS" (Grk. for "time") in Timaeus they would arrive at a wholly different conclusion. Here is my little study on Timaeus:
(author's note: Most English translations of Timaeus render both "aidion" and "aion" and "aionion" as "eternal." This is untennable as will be seen):

Concerning Plato's Timaeus:
"WHEN the father creator saw the creature which he had made moving
and living, the created image of the AIDION gods, he rejoiced, and in his
joy determined to make the copy still more like the original; and as this
was AIDION, he sought to make the universe EONION, so far as might be.
Now the nature of the ideal being was EONIAN, but to bestow this
attribute in its fulness upon a creature was impossible. Wherefore he
resolved to have a moving image of the EON, and when he set in order the
heaven, he made this image the EON but moving according to number,
while EONIAN itself rests in unity; and this image we call time. For there
were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was
created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They
are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time,
which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the AIDION essence; for
we say that he "was," he "is," he "will be," but the truth is that "is" alone
is properly attributed to him, and that "was" and "will be" only to be
spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is
immovably the same cannot become older or younger by time, nor ever did
or has become, or hereafter will be, older or younger, nor is subject at all
to any of those states which affect moving and sensible things and of
which generation is the cause. These are the forms of time, which
imitates the EON and revolves according to a law of number. Moreover,
when we say that what has become is become and what becomes is
becoming, and that what will become is about to become and that the
non-existent is non-existent-all these are inaccurate modes of
expression."

Tony's note: Please note above that Plato says there is “was,” “is” and
“will be” and that only “was” and “will be” are properly spoken of becoming
in time and since the eons and eonian is an image of time it is improper,
according to Plato to ascribe “was” and “will be” to God. Only “is” is
applicable to God since He never changes nor grows old. So “is” is not
applicable to eon or eonian since only “was” and “will be” are applicable to
eon and eonian. Therefore, according to Plato, eon and eonian are not
eternal since they are not applicable to God who is eternal.

Also, according to Plato's Timaeus, time was created when the heavens were created: the Sun, moon
and stars mark out the times and seasons. And eon and eonian are,
according to Plato a moving image of time. Therefore since the heavens
had a beginning it is impossible for eon or eonian to be eternal (without
beginning). And when the heavens are destroyed time will cease and thus
eon and eonian will cease as well.


Nathaniel Scarlett on Jude 1:6 "unseen chains" . . .
"Most Lexicon writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever or always: but
it may have the same etemology as hades, which they derive from a
negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or
unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it
means unknown; because we see or know only a very small part of God's
power. The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus
Thucydides has this phrase--othen (whence clv) aidion (imperceptible)
misthophoran uparchein (to be belonging clv), from whence he expected a
perpetual salary." But this could only be a salary during his life: therefore
the word here in Thucydides means a period unknown; though it will
certainly end."


Tony Nungesser (that's me) A.K.A. Eusebius

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-06-2011 at 07:15 AM..
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Texas
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I wasn't aware that the writings of Plato was considered Scripture.
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
I wasn't aware that the writings of Plato was considered Scripture.
They aren't. Lexicographers and theologians, in trying to prove aion, aionion mean "eternal," often cite Plato's Timaeus.
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Also, according to Plato's Timaeus, time was created when the heavens were created: the Sun, moon and stars mark out the times and seasons. And eon and eonian are, according to Plato a moving image of time. Therefore since the heavens had a beginning it is impossible for eon or eonian to be eternal (without beginning). And when the heavens are destroyed time will cease and thus eon and eonian will cease as well.
I came to the same conclusion, this is what I wrote elsewhere concerning the subject:

And when the Father that engendered it perceived it in motion and alive, a thing of joy to the eternal gods (aidiõn theõn), He too rejoiced; and being well-pleased He designed to make it resemble its Model still more closely. Accordingly, seeing that that Model is an eternal Living Creature (zõon aidion on), He set about making this Universe, so far as He could, of a like kind. But inasmuch as the nature of the Living Creature was æonian, this quality it was impossible to attach in its entirety to what is generated; wherefore He planned to make a movable image of Eternity (aiõnos), and, as He set in order the Heaven, of that Eternity (aiõnos) which abides in unity He made an æonian image, moving according to number, even that which we have named Time (chronos). (Plato, Timaeus 37c,d)

Time, then, came into existence along with the Heaven, to the end that having been generated together they might also be dissolved together, if ever a dissolution of them should take place; and it was made after the pattern of the Eternal (diaiõnias) Nature, to the end that it might be as like thereto as possible; for whereas the pattern is existent through all eternity (panta aiõna), the copy, on the other hand, is through all time, continually having existed, existing, and being about to exist. (Timaeus 38)

Plato may have coined the term aiõnios, and this passage is commonly used as a prove that aiõnios means eternal, however Plato says that time is the aiõnios image of time, of time he says it came into existence with the heaven, time therefore had an beginning despite it is called aiõnios, Plato further says that if the heaven might be dissolved, time shall be dissolved with it. This would mean, time being an aiõnios image of "eternity" came into existence with the heaven and might vanish together with the heaven as I understand it , Plato could therefore not have understood aiõnios as denoting literal and unconditional endlessness, but maybe conditional duration or perpetuity as I understand it.

However I must admit I have no clue what Plato is saying and what his idea of aion exactly is, you might find this thread interesting, I would appreciate comments because I want to fully understand the ancient idea of aion

Quote:
I wasn't aware that the writings of Plato was considered Scripture.
yet some quote Plato and Aristotle as if they were prophets


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Old 01-06-2011, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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I am starting to find this debate quite entertaining.
It's like watching cavemen trying to figure out how to use icbm.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
I wasn't aware that the writings of Plato was considered Scripture.
It is because of Plato, that we have UR.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It is because of Plato, that we have UR.

What's UR?
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
What's UR?
I think something Geico made a commercial about using cavemen.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
It is because of Plato, that we have UR.
no it is because of Plato that we have immortal souls and maybe "eternity", Plato did not teach UR, as far as I know he taught eternal damnation at least for a few; and maybe he was even the first who did so

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Old 01-06-2011, 09:32 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It is because of Plato, that we have UR.
No, UR (Universal Reconciliation) is because of what Christ accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection for all mankind.
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