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Old 01-08-2011, 05:15 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,849,885 times
Reputation: 1302

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hello everyone, I've been on the forum for about a month and have posted but this is my first time starting a thread.

I know there have been many vigorous debates about ET vs UR and I hope I don't just repeat what has already been said but the topic fascinates me and I like to hear both sides and the logic behind each posters reasons.

I will state that I believe in universal reconciliation, God will save all his children. I did not always believe that, in fact for a long time I did not really think about God very much at all. When I and my wife decided to start attending church I wanted to know all I could. That desire to find out seemed to come out of left field and surprised me a little. I now know that it was God speaking to me and starting the process of opening my eyes

As I learned things, questions popped up about ET, which I used to believe in, that did not make sense anymore. the first was the purpose of Hell and eternal torture in fire.

As a parent I know that I chastised my children when they did wrong to teach them right from wrong and to modify their behavior. That is the purpose of punishment. That is what we are to do. But to punish strictly for the sake of punishing and further punishing with no let up is monstrous. I could not understand why God would put people in Hell and torture them eternally with no let up and not to correct behavior but just for the sake of torturing them. It makes no sense.

When I asked people who believed in that I was told that they had their chance and now they must suffer for eternity for rejecting Christ. But what if they repented I asked, I was told too bad it was too late. It made no sense.

I asked was God so vengeful that he would torture, literally billions of people, some who I probably love , forever with no hope of relief ?
They said that the people had made their choice so that was it. It made no sense.

What of people that had no knowledge of God or Jesus. Some people became a little uncomfortable and said they did not know, some said that was too bad but God was not obligated to extend Grace to everyone.

During this questioning period I was reading the Bible and other papers written about different doctrines and I began to relize that certain thing I had been told were not true. I learned the Bible was not a literal book but a spiritual book. As God opened my eyes I began to realize certain things about the true nature of God and Jesus. God would not and could not torture his children in fire just to do it. God chastises his children just like I do to correct their behavior and teach them right from wrong. To put them in Hell burning in agony forever was insane, and God is not insane.

Then I learned from Philippians 2:10-11, Romans 14:11, and Isaiah 45:23, that every knee will bow and every voice proclaim that Jesus is lord. That means that even the people win Hell would kneel and proclaim Jesus Lord. How could that be if they rejected him. I was told that God will make them kneel if he had to"break their knees" to make them kneel. But I though God does not force anyone to do any thing against their will. I then learned in 1 Corinthians 12:3 that you can only call Jesus lord by the Holy Spirit, so that would mean that all those people in Hell are full of the Holy Spirit but are stuck in Hell. It made no sense.

The process I went through took some time and I was learning all that time. I now know that God is love and he will save all his children. The pagan believe of Hell is of Satin and in the end will be defeated.

Thanks for reading my post.

Where is the question in the OP ?

 
Old 01-08-2011, 06:39 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hello everyone, I've been on the forum for about a month and have posted but this is my first time starting a thread.

I know there have been many vigorous debates about ET vs UR and I hope I don't just repeat what has already been said but the topic fascinates me and I like to hear both sides and the logic behind each posters reasons.

I will state that I believe in universal reconciliation, God will save all his children. I did not always believe that, in fact for a long time I did not really think about God very much at all. When I and my wife decided to start attending church I wanted to know all I could. That desire to find out seemed to come out of left field and surprised me a little. I now know that it was God speaking to me and starting the process of opening my eyes

As I learned things, questions popped up about ET, which I used to believe in, that did not make sense anymore. the first was the purpose of Hell and eternal torture in fire.

As a parent I know that I chastised my children when they did wrong to teach them right from wrong and to modify their behavior. That is the purpose of punishment. That is what we are to do. But to punish strictly for the sake of punishing and further punishing with no let up is monstrous. I could not understand why God would put people in Hell and torture them eternally with no let up and not to correct behavior but just for the sake of torturing them. It makes no sense.

When I asked people who believed in that I was told that they had their chance and now they must suffer for eternity for rejecting Christ. But what if they repented I asked, I was told too bad it was too late. It made no sense.

I asked was God so vengeful that he would torture, literally billions of people, some who I probably love , forever with no hope of relief ?
They said that the people had made their choice so that was it. It made no sense.

What of people that had no knowledge of God or Jesus. Some people became a little uncomfortable and said they did not know, some said that was too bad but God was not obligated to extend Grace to everyone.

During this questioning period I was reading the Bible and other papers written about different doctrines and I began to relize that certain thing I had been told were not true. I learned the Bible was not a literal book but a spiritual book. As God opened my eyes I began to realize certain things about the true nature of God and Jesus. God would not and could not torture his children in fire just to do it. God chastises his children just like I do to correct their behavior and teach them right from wrong. To put them in Hell burning in agony forever was insane, and God is not insane.

Then I learned from Philippians 2:10-11, Romans 14:11, and Isaiah 45:23, that every knee will bow and every voice proclaim that Jesus is lord. That means that even the people win Hell would kneel and proclaim Jesus Lord. How could that be if they rejected him. I was told that God will make them kneel if he had to"break their knees" to make them kneel. But I though God does not force anyone to do any thing against their will. I then learned in 1 Corinthians 12:3 that you can only call Jesus lord by the Holy Spirit, so that would mean that all those people in Hell are full of the Holy Spirit but are stuck in Hell. It made no sense.

The process I went through took some time and I was learning all that time. I now know that God is love and he will save all his children. The pagan believe of Hell is of Satin and in the end will be defeated.

Thanks for reading my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Where is the question in the OP ?
I highlighted them to aid your reading comprehension, Twin.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:18 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
Reputation: 683
The spirit of irrationality is a powerful thing. One can defend the doctrine of ET for many years without ever thinking about or addressing the many contradictions within it.

And then when it is shown plainly there is an alternative - 100% biblically based, the irrationality must be defended - there is pride at stake. One has vested years believing ET - it seems that must be protected at all costs.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:22 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,849,885 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The spirit of irrationality is a powerful thing. One can defend the doctrine of ET for many years without ever thinking about or addressing the many contradictions within it.

And then when it is shown plainly there is an alternative - 100% biblically based, the irrationality must be defended - there is pride at stake. One has vested years believing ET - it seems that must be protected at all costs.
The same is true in the opposite:

The spirit of irrationality is a powerful thing. One can defend the doctrine of UR for many years without ever thinking about or addressing the many contradictions within it.

And then when it is shown plainly there is an alternative - 100% biblically based, the irrationality must be defended - there is pride at stake. One has vested years believing UR - it seems that must be protected at all costs


So when God says:

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

and

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

the only conclusion (being both are true) is that "all" does not mean "all inclusive"
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

So when this was asked
Luke 13:23
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?,..."

.... You're incorrect. All will be universally restored, that's the Father's will. His will exceeds yours!

rather Jesus' answer was:

Luke 13:23-24
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to."

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-08-2011 at 10:36 PM..
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:24 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The same is true in the opposite:

The spirit of irrationality is a powerful thing. One can defend the doctrine of UR for many years without ever thinking about or addressing the many contradictions within it.

And then when it is shown plainly there is an alternative - 100% biblically based, the irrationality must be defended - there is pride at stake. One has vested years believing UR - it seems that must be protected at all costs
Instead of playing juvenile games of "mirror, mirror" . . . answer the questions from the OP that I highlighted so you would know what they were.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:52 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The same is true in the opposite:

The spirit of irrationality is a powerful thing. One can defend the doctrine of UR for many years without ever thinking about or addressing the many contradictions within it.

And then when it is shown plainly there is an alternative - 100% biblically based, the irrationality must be defended - there is pride at stake. One has vested years believing UR - it seems that must be protected at all costs


So when God says:

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

and

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

the only conclusion (being both are true) is that "all" does not mean "all inclusive"
This is a perfect example of irrationality. That is not the only conclusion.

Quote:
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

So when this was asked
Luke 13:23
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?,..."

.... You're incorrect. All will be universally restored, that's the Father's will. His will exceeds yours!

rather Jesus' answer was:

Luke 13:23-24
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to."
Luke 13:30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

You fight to defend a doctrine that promotes endless suffering, when a reasonable and more biblically consistent alternative exists. I'm sorry for you twin.spin.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 12:45 PM
 
351 posts, read 283,981 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Hi Sshulz,

Welcome. I enjoyed reading your post describing your spiritual journey. It made me kind of curious to know if your wife also believes in UR in Christ?

Peace -
Heartsong
My wife grew up in a strong church family and was taught ET all her life. She has listened to my reasoning and she said she has always had some of the same questions, but just accepted what was told to her because it was from her parent, and grandparents and pastor. Right now she is still a little unsure of which way to go, what I believe makes more sense but she is having trouble letting go of a life long belief but I'm still working on her.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 02:52 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,936,115 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hello everyone, I've been on the forum for about a month and have posted but this is my first time starting a thread.

I know there have been many vigorous debates about ET vs UR and I hope I don't just repeat what has already been said but the topic fascinates me and I like to hear both sides and the logic behind each posters reasons.

you wont get much reasoning from the ETers,just aload of missinterpreted bible verses.and your questions will be answered much in the same way,but hey you already know what your heart tells you is true,and im realy glad to hear it,there are too many people still stuck in the misconception that god tortures people forever,i was one of them meself till i hit 17 and started questioning.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,610 posts, read 3,975,390 times
Reputation: 1389
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
I asked was God so vengeful that he would torture, literally billions of people, some who I probably love , forever with no hope of relief ?
Oh, so THAT was your question. I had to read your long post very carefully to find a question mark.

And the answer is, "Yes, he is that vengeful". Didn't he make that clear in one of his Ten Commandments?
 
Old 01-09-2011, 04:22 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Oh, so THAT was your question. I had to read your long post very carefully to find a question mark.

And the answer is, "Yes, he is that vengeful". Didn't he make that clear in one of his Ten Commandments?
You are not an ET believer . . . you are not a believer at all . . . why intercept a question targeted to those who already duck and hide every time a difficult question about ET is posed? You give them cover . . . or is that your intent?
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