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Old 01-07-2011, 03:37 PM
 
351 posts, read 283,395 times
Reputation: 118

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Hello everyone, I've been on the forum for about a month and have posted but this is my first time starting a thread.

I know there have been many vigorous debates about ET vs UR and I hope I don't just repeat what has already been said but the topic fascinates me and I like to hear both sides and the logic behind each posters reasons.

I will state that I believe in universal reconciliation, God will save all his children. I did not always believe that, in fact for a long time I did not really think about God very much at all. When I and my wife decided to start attending church I wanted to know all I could. That desire to find out seemed to come out of left field and surprised me a little. I now know that it was God speaking to me and starting the process of opening my eyes

As I learned things, questions popped up about ET, which I used to believe in, that did not make sense anymore. the first was the purpose of Hell and eternal torture in fire.

As a parent I know that I chastised my children when they did wrong to teach them right from wrong and to modify their behavior. That is the purpose of punishment. That is what we are to do. But to punish strictly for the sake of punishing and further punishing with no let up is monstrous. I could not understand why God would put people in Hell and torture them eternally with no let up and not to correct behavior but just for the sake of torturing them. It makes no sense.

When I asked people who believed in that I was told that they had their chance and now they must suffer for eternity for rejecting Christ. But what if they repented I asked, I was told too bad it was too late. It made no sense.

I asked was God so vengeful that he would torture, literally billions of people, some who I probably love , forever with no hope of relief ?
They said that the people had made their choice so that was it. It made no sense.

What of people that had no knowledge of God or Jesus. Some people became a little uncomfortable and said they did not know, some said that was too bad but God was not obligated to extend Grace to everyone.

During this questioning period I was reading the Bible and other papers written about different doctrines and I began to relize that certain thing I had been told were not true. I learned the Bible was not a literal book but a spiritual book. As God opened my eyes I began to realize certain things about the true nature of God and Jesus. God would not and could not torture his children in fire just to do it. God chastises his children just like I do to correct their behavior and teach them right from wrong. To put them in Hell burning in agony forever was insane, and God is not insane.

Then I learned from Philippians 2:10-11, Romans 14:11, and Isaiah 45:23, that every knee will bow and every voice proclaim that Jesus is lord. That means that even the people win Hell would kneel and proclaim Jesus Lord. How could that be if they rejected him. I was told that God will make them kneel if he had to"break their knees" to make them kneel. But I though God does not force anyone to do any thing against their will. I then learned in 1 Corinthians 12:3 that you can only call Jesus lord by the Holy Spirit, so that would mean that all those people in Hell are full of the Holy Spirit but are stuck in Hell. It made no sense.

The process I went through took some time and I was learning all that time. I now know that God is love and he will save all his children. The pagan believe of Hell is of Satin and in the end will be defeated.

Thanks for reading my post.

 
Old 01-07-2011, 04:21 PM
 
7,869 posts, read 6,677,880 times
Reputation: 1372
After the great judgement of all the spirits of God creation..... In Revelations 21: 4 ... The heart of God in those days ... `` And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be NO MORE DEATH, neither sorror, nor crying neither shall there be any more pain for the former things are passed away``...... See God will also have to wipe away his tears after he judges his creation that he gave life to ....... see believing the bible is not pagan as you say, it is the truth because it is the only truth that the Lord has for us at this time .......... ur rejects the many scriptures and reasons if the scriptures does not say ``If they believed than `` then it does not exist and it mean all people to these people...........
 
Old 01-07-2011, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,574,939 times
Reputation: 1584
Hi Sshulz,

Welcome. I enjoyed reading your post describing your spiritual journey. It made me kind of curious to know if your wife also believes in UR in Christ?

Peace -
Heartsong
 
Old 01-07-2011, 08:25 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,047,457 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
After the great judgement of all the spirits of God creation..... In Revelations 21: 4 ... The heart of God in those days ... `` And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be NO MORE DEATH, neither sorror, nor crying neither shall there be any more pain for the former things are passed away``...... See God will also have to wipe away his tears after he judges his creation that he gave life to ....... see believing the bible is not pagan as you say, it is the truth because it is the only truth that the Lord has for us at this time .......... ur rejects the many scriptures and reasons if the scriptures does not say ``If they believed than `` then it does not exist and it mean all people to these people...........
Amen.... hljc !!
 
Old 01-07-2011, 10:22 PM
 
37,573 posts, read 25,275,797 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
During this questioning period I was reading the Bible and other papers written about different doctrines and I began to relize that certain thing I had been told were not true. I learned the Bible was not a literal book but a spiritual book. As God opened my eyes I began to realize certain things about the true nature of God and Jesus. God would not and could not torture his children in fire just to do it. God chastises his children just like I do to correct their behavior and teach them right from wrong. To put them in Hell burning in agony forever was insane, and God is not insane.
This pretty much sums it up . . . insane!
Quote:
The process I went through took some time and I was learning all that time. I now know that God is love and he will save all his children. The pagan believe of Hell is of Satan and in the end will be defeated.

Thanks for reading my post.
Amen! Thank you for sharing your witness with us, brother.
 
Old 01-07-2011, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,904,102 times
Reputation: 624
We know only very little of the subject but we argue as if we know all. I still struggle with the idea but have to admitt I do not know for sure whether ET, UR, or AN so I am comfortable with Eternal Seperation and God will reveal the rest. PATIENCE
 
Old 01-07-2011, 10:34 PM
 
1,492 posts, read 2,225,039 times
Reputation: 250
beautifully said

certainly God cannot wipe away every tear if there will be ppl in heaven who have loved ones in hell.it makes no sense.
 
Old 01-07-2011, 11:06 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,756,061 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hello everyone, I've been on the forum for about a month and have posted but this is my first time starting a thread.

I know there have been many vigorous debates about ET vs UR and I hope I don't just repeat what has already been said but the topic fascinates me and I like to hear both sides and the logic behind each posters reasons.

I will state that I believe in universal reconciliation, God will save all his children. I did not always believe that, in fact for a long time I did not really think about God very much at all. When I and my wife decided to start attending church I wanted to know all I could. That desire to find out seemed to come out of left field and surprised me a little. I now know that it was God speaking to me and starting the process of opening my eyes

As I learned things, questions popped up about ET, which I used to believe in, that did not make sense anymore. the first was the purpose of Hell and eternal torture in fire.

As a parent I know that I chastised my children when they did wrong to teach them right from wrong and to modify their behavior. That is the purpose of punishment. That is what we are to do. But to punish strictly for the sake of punishing and further punishing with no let up is monstrous. I could not understand why God would put people in Hell and torture them eternally with no let up and not to correct behavior but just for the sake of torturing them. It makes no sense.

When I asked people who believed in that I was told that they had their chance and now they must suffer for eternity for rejecting Christ. But what if they repented I asked, I was told too bad it was too late. It made no sense.

I asked was God so vengeful that he would torture, literally billions of people, some who I probably love , forever with no hope of relief ?
They said that the people had made their choice so that was it. It made no sense.

What of people that had no knowledge of God or Jesus. Some people became a little uncomfortable and said they did not know, some said that was too bad but God was not obligated to extend Grace to everyone.

During this questioning period I was reading the Bible and other papers written about different doctrines and I began to relize that certain thing I had been told were not true. I learned the Bible was not a literal book but a spiritual book. As God opened my eyes I began to realize certain things about the true nature of God and Jesus. God would not and could not torture his children in fire just to do it. God chastises his children just like I do to correct their behavior and teach them right from wrong. To put them in Hell burning in agony forever was insane, and God is not insane.

Then I learned from Philippians 2:10-11, Romans 14:11, and Isaiah 45:23, that every knee will bow and every voice proclaim that Jesus is lord. That means that even the people win Hell would kneel and proclaim Jesus Lord. How could that be if they rejected him. I was told that God will make them kneel if he had to"break their knees" to make them kneel. But I though God does not force anyone to do any thing against their will. I then learned in 1 Corinthians 12:3 that you can only call Jesus lord by the Holy Spirit, so that would mean that all those people in Hell are full of the Holy Spirit but are stuck in Hell. It made no sense.

The process I went through took some time and I was learning all that time. I now know that God is love and he will save all his children. The pagan believe of Hell is of Satin and in the end will be defeated.

Thanks for reading my post.
Wow, thanks for sharing that SShulz that's really awesome. I was raised to believe in ET but thanks to a whole lot of soul searching and the fine UR folks here at City-Data I was able to learn the truth. And what an awesome truth it is!! I hope that some of the ETer's...no...all of them....here at C-D will take the time to read your post.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,633,573 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hello everyone, I've been on the forum for about a month and have posted but this is my first time starting a thread.

I know there have been many vigorous debates about ET vs UR and I hope I don't just repeat what has already been said but the topic fascinates me and I like to hear both sides and the logic behind each posters reasons.

I will state that I believe in universal reconciliation, God will save all his children. I did not always believe that, in fact for a long time I did not really think about God very much at all. When I and my wife decided to start attending church I wanted to know all I could. That desire to find out seemed to come out of left field and surprised me a little. I now know that it was God speaking to me and starting the process of opening my eyes

As I learned things, questions popped up about ET, which I used to believe in, that did not make sense anymore. the first was the purpose of Hell and eternal torture in fire.

As a parent I know that I chastised my children when they did wrong to teach them right from wrong and to modify their behavior. That is the purpose of punishment. That is what we are to do. But to punish strictly for the sake of punishing and further punishing with no let up is monstrous. I could not understand why God would put people in Hell and torture them eternally with no let up and not to correct behavior but just for the sake of torturing them. It makes no sense.

When I asked people who believed in that I was told that they had their chance and now they must suffer for eternity for rejecting Christ. But what if they repented I asked, I was told too bad it was too late. It made no sense.

I asked was God so vengeful that he would torture, literally billions of people, some who I probably love , forever with no hope of relief ?
They said that the people had made their choice so that was it. It made no sense.

What of people that had no knowledge of God or Jesus. Some people became a little uncomfortable and said they did not know, some said that was too bad but God was not obligated to extend Grace to everyone.

During this questioning period I was reading the Bible and other papers written about different doctrines and I began to relize that certain thing I had been told were not true. I learned the Bible was not a literal book but a spiritual book. As God opened my eyes I began to realize certain things about the true nature of God and Jesus. God would not and could not torture his children in fire just to do it. God chastises his children just like I do to correct their behavior and teach them right from wrong. To put them in Hell burning in agony forever was insane, and God is not insane.

Then I learned from Philippians 2:10-11, Romans 14:11, and Isaiah 45:23, that every knee will bow and every voice proclaim that Jesus is lord. That means that even the people win Hell would kneel and proclaim Jesus Lord. How could that be if they rejected him. I was told that God will make them kneel if he had to"break their knees" to make them kneel. But I though God does not force anyone to do any thing against their will. I then learned in 1 Corinthians 12:3 that you can only call Jesus lord by the Holy Spirit, so that would mean that all those people in Hell are full of the Holy Spirit but are stuck in Hell. It made no sense.

The process I went through took some time and I was learning all that time. I now know that God is love and he will save all his children. The pagan believe of Hell is of Satin and in the end will be defeated.

Thanks for reading my post.
It seems as if all universalists at one point were either Eternal Torment believers or annhilationists. Most of us have been there. God gave me a reasonable and rational Spirit and helped me to escape the annihiltionist belief that I had. I had irrationally and unreasonable defended that position for a long time prior. So I know that many people that currently embrace Eternal Torment and annhilationism can also receive that spirit of rationality and reason and come to see the light of this Glorious and Wonderful Gospel where God saves everyone.

Some of the arguments from the ETers and annhilationist is as if we never heard or believed what they believe. As if we somehow just embraced universalism from the start. I was grown up in a Roman Catholic family and myself departed to Armstrongism and then later was liberated to Universalism. So I know their arguments. As many of us do. I know in due time they ALL will know and share in our wonderful Gospel.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,254 posts, read 20,007,605 times
Reputation: 2109
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
It seems as if all universalists at one point were either Eternal Torment believers or annhilationists. Most of us have been there. God gave me a reasonable and rational Spirit and helped me to escape the annihiltionist belief that I had. I had irrationally and unreasonable defended that position for a long time prior. So I know that many people that currently embrace Eternal Torment and annhilationism can also receive that spirit of rationality and reason and come to see the light of this Glorious and Wonderful Gospel where God saves everyone.

Some of the arguments from the ETers and annhilationist is as if we never heard or believed what they believe. As if we somehow just embraced universalism from the start. I was grown up in a Roman Catholic family and myself departed to Armstrongism and then later was liberated to Universalism. So I know their arguments. As many of us do. I know in due time they ALL will know and share in our wonderful Gospel.
This is so true, and i am sure there are many who now believe in UR,who were previously sold out in our minds to the idea of ET , and our conversation was mainly of how sinful man is, instead of how wonderful God is.
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