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Old 01-09-2011, 10:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
There are (at least) THREE fundamental flaws in your argument:


(1). You have "Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth" in a way that simply supports an otherwise unBiblical position. While all scripture is inspired, all interpretations are not … and yours certainly fits into the latter category.
well if you think that the interpretations of eternal torment are inspired bye goodness,which would be another quality of God then fair enough,but since when is torture good,there are also plenty of truths that dont show themselvs in the bible,after all their is an unlimited amount of knowledge about God,so the bible is limited in its knowledge of god..................yes YOUR interpretation of gospil is definitly ispired bye something else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
(2). You have confused God and His ways with man and His ways --- and then used “rational lies” to invent “a ‘god’ who would not operate the way he does, if he were a man.” God is righteous, holy and just -- whether you understand it or not!
..God is rightous ,holy and just..that just proves my point dont it now,,,,,,,man(evil men)might be able to torture people,but God wouldnt do it because He loves the world,so what was your point again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
(3) You have chosen to pick and choose partial verses from scripture (and others from who knows where) to support your disbelief in hell. Yet, you reject countless other specific Bible passages that explicitly refer to an eternal hell/darkness/condemnation (Isn’t that, in fact, the entire basis for your argument … “That the Bible clearly says something that you do not want to believe.” In doing so, however, you have completely undermined any credibility you might otherwise have, for using scripture to ‘support’ your position.


No i wasnt using scrpture at all really,i just took a few of Jesus' words,simple ones at that, to prove that God is better than what your making Him out to be,so No the entire basis of my argument was not about scripture but about reason and logic,,,if you dont beleive that God is the freind of everyliving entity,then fair enough,but my heart,which is more important than any doctrine knows that god is higher than anything anyone can imagine and He is good,infact their is no limit to His goodness,He is Supremely good,now if your logic and reaspon comes to the conclusion that god is goin to torture beiongs forever then you do realise dont you that that is making Him out to be worse than satan,satan only tempts,but god tortures,now where does that make for your credibility .

 
Old 01-09-2011, 10:56 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
what about people that never hear the gospil or of Jesus,are they automatically condemnded or let of the hook for not knowing,if its the latter then most people would have been better off not knowing.
Everyone, EVERYONE is born already condemned from birth. You MUST believe in Christ to receive salvation.

As for those who have never heard the gospel, refer to posts #76, 135, and 160 at the following thread.

The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:00 AM
 
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mike555.... your whole argument seems to be based on one not beleiving in Jesus,could you answer my question on post#89,please.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Salvation is a free gift which is received through faith in Christ.
By and through the "Faithfulness of Christ."
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,629,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

You who are a universalist who believes that all men will be saved are now saying that the eternal security of the believer is a license to sin?
Not I. I believe the very purpose Jesus came was to destroy sin in order to save us all. I believe that He will complete that mission in FULL for all of us.

Quote:
Adam was created perfect. He had no sin nature before he disobeyed God. God did not create the sin nature. It came into existence with Adam's first sin.
Adam was never create perfect. If he had been perfect then he couldn't sin. What is perfect doesn't sin.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Christ was perfect:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Mike you continue to preach things that damage the minds of others since they are proven time after time to be contrary to God's Word.

Quote:
The old sin nature is referred to as the flesh (1 John 2:16). Again, this is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin. If Jesus had had a normal birth, then the sin nature would have been passed down to him through his father.
But you were stating that the nature was in the CELL structure. The Flesh is not a reference to the cell structure. The Flesh is a reference to spirit in the man that caters to the earthly self. That is the sin nature. There is nothing in scriptures that says this sin nature is contains in the cell structure.

Quote:
If God had imputed our personal sins to us for condemnation then they would have been held against us. But God chose to impute Adam's original sin to the entire human race and condemn the human race on that basis. And He set aside our personal sins until that time in history when Jesus came into the world and paid for those sins. And that is how Jesus saved us from our sins.
See now your saying that Jesus saves us from our sins. Yet you said before the following:

"Your personal sins were never held against you with regard to the issue of eternal condemnation and salvation. "

Your now contradicting your earlier statement.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Everyone, EVERYONE is born already condemned from birth. You MUST believe in Christ to receive salvation.

As for those who have never heard the gospel, refer to posts #76, 135, and 160 at the following thread.

The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment
Mike do you believe God has:

1.) Do you believe God is all powerful?
2.) Do you believe God desires all to believe?
3.) Do you believe God can make us all believe?
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:25 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, that passage does not say that all mankind is going to be made righteous. See below.



Do you not understand what the above passage is saying? ''WE ALSO BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED. Because of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, anyone who believes in Him is justified.



Again, you do not understand the matter. Simply put, it is because of what Christ did on the cross, that when a person believes in Christ, he appropriates what Christ did on the cross. NO one is justified apart from a personal decision to believe in Christ. Christ's work on the cross was for the purpose of making justification possible. Justification is not applyed to anyone until they believe in Christ for salvation. Justification and therefore, salvation is contengent upon making a non-meritorious decision to place your faith in Christ.

Read and comprehend what the following passages say.

Acts 13:38 ''Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39] and through Him EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IS MADE RIGHTEOUS (Justified). Now refer to this passage in this interlinear Bible.Acts 13:39 Biblos Interlinear Bible

Romans 4:4 'Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Here it is in the Greek. Romans 4:5 Biblos Interlinear Bible The ungodly are justified at the point that they believe in Christ.

Gal 3:6 'Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Biblos Interlinear Bible

Because of what Jesus accomplished on the cross with reference to redemption, unlimited atonement, expiation, and propitiation, anyone who places his faith in Christ for salvation receives the imputation of God the Father's perfect righteousness and is declared justified. Additionally, the church-age believer is placed into union with Jesus Christ and therefore shares the righteousness of Christ.

Again, as the scriptures make abundantly clear, salvation is conditional on personal faith in Christ.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Salvation is a free gift which is received through faith in Christ.
Mike, are you to believe that Christ died only for your sins?
Are you saved because you believe that Christ died only for your own sins?
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
So a baby is spiritually dead when born and you reenforce this again by saying we are born condemned. This means if this same baby dies prematurely, it is simply out of luck and will burn forever, correct? Or does God cut the baby a break?

If God pardons then we have a problem. We have souls making it to heaven without being born again.

Plus, if He does pardon, at what age does he draw the line for the child?
Everyone who is born is born spiritually dead and under eternal condemnation. God holds us responsible to make a non-meritorious faith decision for Christ in order to have the condemnation removed and receive eternal life.

However, since God is just and fair, He cannot and does not hold responsible those who are unable to come to a point of God consciousness. God consciousness simply refers to that point that a person has developed mentally to where he can conceive of some kind of a supreme being. If a baby dies before being able to even conceive of God, or if a person regardless of age, due to severe mental retardation, is unable to conceive of God, then God in fairness and justice cannot hold them responsible to make a decision. Therefore such people are automaticaly saved.

Since in order to spend eternity in the presence of God, a person must receive the imputation of both God's eternal life and His divine righteousness, then God would impute these to the baby who dies either at death, or just before.

The Scriptures don't directly address the issue of those who die before reaching the point of accountability. But since God requires a volitional decision from man in order to receive the gift of salvation, God in justice and fairness will not hold responsible those who simply don't have the mental facilty to make such a decision because they never even reached the point where they conceive of God.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,629,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God in justice and fairness will not hold responsible those who simply don't have the mental facilty to make such a decision because they never even reached the point where they conceive of God.
So if the babies are imputed salvation and the mentally deficient are imputed salvation then why not destroy all babies and cause all to be mentally damanged in order to save all?
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:45 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,551 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Everyone who is born is born spiritually dead and under eternal condemnation. God holds us responsible to make a non-meritorious faith decision for Christ in order to have the condemnation removed and receive eternal life.

However, since God is just and fair, He cannot and does not hold responsible those who are unable to come to a point of God consciousness. God consciousness simply refers to that point that a person has developed mentally to where he can conceive of some kind of a supreme being. If a baby dies before being able to even conceive of God, or if a person regardless of age, due to severe mental retardation, is unable to conceive of God, then God in fairness and justice cannot hold them responsible to make a decision. Therefore such people are automaticaly saved.

Since in order to spend eternity in the presence of God, a person must receive the imputation of both God's eternal life and His divine righteousness, then God would impute these to the baby who dies either at death, or just before.

The Scriptures don't directly address the issue of those who die before reaching the point of accountability. But since God requires a volitional decision from man in order to receive the gift of salvation, God in justice and fairness will not hold responsible those who simply don't have the mental facilty to make such a decision because they never even reached the point where they conceive of God.
so in that case it would be better if everyone was just born handicaped,or died as children,i suppose it would only be fair of Him to do the same to those who never hear of Jesus or the gospil aswell.

what the world shoud do is kill every child right now as to save them from an almost definite eternity in hell,with this logic that should be the right thing to do,i should just kill my children my 3 boys right now and garauntee them a place in heaven,who cares if i go to hell for it,oh yeah i forgot it dosent matter what i do as long as i beleive, if what your post says is true then the world shouldnt think twice about it and kill all children,,,its kinda like a loophole in the contract isnt it,you can either save yourself bye beleiving in Jesus or die young,or mentally ill.

what about a person who was once sane then after whatever reason becomes insane,i mean he could have saved himself in the last few years/months/days/hours/minutes/seconds of his life if he hadnt of became mentally ill,,,,,,,you know what with these beleifs it really makes me understand how off the wall they are and gives me strenght in beleiving what my heart tells me???
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