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Old 01-10-2011, 12:53 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Mike555, you have not answererd the challenge.

All the characters who Jesus met on a personal basis, believed in an instance, not one of them was challenged to make a choice by Jesus. The light of the glorious gospel shone in their hearts and they believed.
This decision making and choosing Jesus is a lie. Any person who has ever uttered these words "Lord i believe", as done so from the work of the holy spirit, who works in our hearts prior to that confession. He makes known to us the riches of his kindness displayed to the world through his son Jesus,he is patient and tolerant towards us in this process of making himself known to us. and leaves us without doubt that truely he is the son of God and our Savior.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

You see Mike God does something in our hearts, that gives.
I am not interested in whether you think I answered your challenge or not. It has been answered.

You continue to play with words. Jesus didn't challenge anyone. He presented the issue with reqard to salvation and left it to their volition as to whether they would believe in Him or not for salvation.

And as I made clear, Judas Iscariot who spend three years with Christ, never did believe in Him for salvation. Readers refer back to post #163.

The issue is this. The decision is this.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does ot obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'


John 5:40 ''And you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.''

Now if you can't see the volitional choice in John 5:40, the decision that must be made...then there is really nothing more to say.

I'll not repeat myself. Believe what you will.

 
Old 01-10-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,108,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
1--God would know the fate of a living entity before they even came here,so if their fate was eternal hell then he wouldnt have created them in the first place.

2--God is full of mercy.not just partially but fully.

3--God is tolerant. He has an unlimited amount of the stuff.

4--God beleives in justice,and no crime fits an eternal punishment,it would be like torturing someone for their whole life for robbing a grape,at least the torture would end,so you couldnt even compare this punishment to what God is supposidly goin to do.

5-Jesus' words-''forgive them father ,they dont know what they are doing'',shows that God can forgive,if Jesus didnt beleive this then He ouldnt have askes,an the fact that he knew that our sins are commited only out of ignorance,ignorance of our true selves which are eternally full of bliss and knowledge.

6-Jesus' words-''what you reap,so shall you so'',so punishment only comes with what is just,we ill be punished according to our crimes,and no crime deserves eternal punishment,for their would be nothig good to come out of it and nothing learned.

7--Jesus' words--''easy to love your freind but to love thy enemy?''-no if Jesus is a representation of god then why do you think He'd say that if God didnt beleive in it Himself,God loves all including His enemys,he might treat them different to teach them,but to torture them forever,that just dont fit the boot!

8--its damn right satanic--torture is considered among the world as evil,even in wars torture is banned,hitler tortured some of his captured enemys,but at least the torture ended,so to think that God would torture someone for eternity would be branding Him as worse than any evil demon that ever entered the planet.

9--anyone who dosent beleive must burn!!!!!!!!!!!!..,this concept must be the worst and most easy to see through,after all their are many wo will never even hear of Jesus,and why would god have created life with so many diverse customs,so that they would differ from christianity.

10--God is Love--Love wuldnt have anything to do with torturing people forever,it is the opposite,Love only Loves,and He wants everybody in on all that heavenly glory,but we have to find it ourselves,through Him,He is the emodiement of Pure Transcendental Love,ecstatic bliss,we are the parts of the whole and he is the whole,we are the children he is the father,no father ould have even one of their sons or daughters burn forever,and its not like He couldnt do anything about it after all He is All Powerfull,so think again folks who still beleive in this concept,a concept that was handed down for the purpose of power through fear,something that im sure god had nothing to do with,or maybe He did just to test ones intelligence,and one's opinion of Him,the charachter of God the Supreme Person,,what is He really like!!!!!!!!!!!!!!aan unjust punisher or a real freind of all living entity's who is impartial to all.
Nice thoughts, dobeable!
Yes, God is our Father. That makes us all brothers and sisters.

Adam disobeyed and made mankind sinful.

But Jesus Christ obeyed, and made mankind justified and alive!

Not all are obedient children yet, but some of us are blessed to have been touched by His Spirit reviving us and causing us to know His Love which passes knowledge.

God is not a man. His ways are above our ways, His thoughts are above our thoughts. His plan has been to put all in disobedience in order to have mercy upon all. In fact, we are saved only by His grace and mercy!

That's why it's so important to understand that all mankind has been justified. We all ought to be encouraging one another in Christ, hell and condemnation are not a part of our vocabulary anymore, since Adam 1 has been nailed to the cross!

Blessings!
brian
 
Old 01-10-2011, 01:06 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555 View Post
i am not interested in whether you think i answered your challenge or not. It has been answered.

you continue to play with words. jesus didn't challenge anyone. He presented the issue with reqard to salvation and left it to their volition as to whether they would believe in him or not for salvation.

and as i made clear, judas iscariot who spend three years with christ, never did believe in him for salvation. Readers refer back to post #163.

the issue is this. The decision is this.

john 3:36 'he who believes in the son has eternal life; but he who does ot obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god abides on him.'


john 5:40 ''and you are unwilling to come to me that you may have life.''

now if you can't see the volitional choice in john 5:40, the decision that must be made...then there is really nothing more to say.

I'll not repeat myself. Believe what you will.
lmao Mike you are unreal . I never once said Jesus challenged anyone, i was challenging you to prove that anyone Jesus met one to one basis that he presented them with a choice, you keep mentioning Judas, why don't you just humble yourself and admit that Jesus not once presented any individual while speaking face to face with them, a choice.

Last edited by pcamps; 01-10-2011 at 01:16 PM..
 
Old 01-10-2011, 03:03 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
lmao Mike you are unreal . I never once said Jesus challenged anyone, i was challenging you to prove that anyone Jesus met one to one basis that he presented them with a choice, you keep mentioning Judas, why don't you just humble yourself and admit that Jesus not once presented any individual while speaking face to face with them, a choice.
From POST 171

QUOTE
All the characters who Jesus met on a personal basis, believed in an instance, not one of them was challenged to make a choice by Jesus.
UNQUOTE

Your words quoted above are what you seek to impose on the issue. It is not a matter of whether Jesus challenged anyone to make a choice. He presented the issue of salvation and left it to people to make a volitional choice.

Readers refer back to MY posts #163, 167, and 171.

pcamps, any further posts from you addressed to me on this subject shall simply be replied to (if replied to) with a reference of readers back to my above mentioned posts. They stand, and nothing need be added to what I have already said.

I'll not indulge you by engaging in petty arguments.
 
Old 01-10-2011, 03:13 PM
 
351 posts, read 283,133 times
Reputation: 118
Hi everyone Whew don't know where to start. This thread is all over the board. I read the whole thing and it took a while. Let me say a few things.

First I know that the ET believed don't like the question about people who kill their children to save them from Hell. Remember the Texas Mother who killed her five children because trhe oldest was reaching maturity She wanted to save them from the possibility that they might end up in Hell so if she thought that if she killed them they went straight to Heaven. She was willing to die (Texas has the death penalty) and burn in Hell forever to save her children because that is what she had been told would happen to her. Kinda puts the statement of Jesus " that no greater Love has a man than he lay down his life for another" a pale second. She was willing to go past that and suffer burning for eternity. Now I know she will not and will be reconciled to God but people who believe in ET have a problem. If what they say is true she did risk more than death, we are all going to die. She risked and in her mind, was going to receive eternal burning in Hell for what she did. Was it insane, to us yes, but to her it made perfect sense, she saved her children. So if that was your main goal above all else it would make sense to you if you believed in ET.

Second I like the way Mike555 puts forth his side of the issues. Makes me think and cross check the verses to make sure what he says is right and if his interpretation is right. Most times I disagree with his interpretation.
The biggest mistake I think he and others make is (IMO) not understanding age-during vs eternal. The literal interpretations of the Bible use age-during because the word AION does not mean eternal even though King James translates it like that. Yes not everyone will rule with Christ in the " Kingdom of God " but that kingdom will end and everything will be turned over to the Father and even the Son shall be subject to Him so God the Father will be all in all. That mean ALL will be reconciled to him like it says in Colossians and Corinthians.

Third I think Mike kinda backed himself in a corner. He rightfully says that God knows who will reject Jesus and who will accept Jesus. He also says that God knows every choice we will make, also true. So if he knows the choice we will make we could make no other choice or he would be wrong. So that is the only choice we could make and there goes free will, out the window. Free will only works if we could make any choice we want but we can't. God has already seen the end before the beginning meaning every choice is set in stone and can not be changed by our supposed free will.

The last thing I would like to say is that sin is not passed on from Adam to us.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

Death was passed on to us not sin. We sin because we have a carnal heart and mind, which we are born with.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Romans 8:20

God does these things for a reason. He had a Savior in place before the world was even created. He knew exactly and in fact planned all that would happen. YOU CAN'T SURPRISE GOD. He knows what he is doing
 
Old 01-10-2011, 03:27 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,334 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're playing with words. I am not interested in your challenge though I have answered it. I am flat out telling you that as the Scriptures declare, You must make a personal decision to believe in Christ for salvation.

He most certainly did tell Nicodemus that he had to make a choice. Oh, he may not have said those exact words, but anyone who has any comprehension ability at all, and who is at least a little bit honest with themself will understand that if (and you do) must believe in Christ for salvation, that a choice must be made. Either you will believe or you will not. You must decide if you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or not.

Now refer back to the very bottom of post #163, and let it sink in. I'll make this clear for you pcamps. What I said in that post is for whoever cares for the truth. I have no interest in going back and forth with those who are determined to keep their eyes closed

Here is what I said at the bottom of that post.

In contrast with the Samaritan woman, Jesus told the unbelieving Jews who sought to kill Him, John 5:40 ''and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.''

YOU ARE UNWILLING!!! YOU ARE UNWILLING!!! YOU ARE UNWILLING!!! YOU! Of your own volition are choosing not to come to Jesus Christ for salvation. YOUR CHOICE!!! YOUR DECISION!!!

And NO, you do not take any credit for your decision to come to Christ. Faith is non-meritorous. Christ did the work for salvation and He offers the free gift of salvation to all. Each individual must decide if he will simply reach out and take the gift through faith in Christ or if he will reject Christ.

In Acts 7:51 Stephen told the Counsel before which he stood, ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always RESISTING the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Moderator cut: off topic and insulting to other posters
do you not realise that when Jesus was talkin to those people,it was in the there and then,they didnt go to Him and become completely free from bondage and fully spiritualy aware just bye accepting Him THEN AND THERE, they could have and been saved right away but,,,,HE NEVER SAID THAT THEY WERE NEVER GOIN TO BE SAVED IN ALL ETERNITY.

thats the apart iof the problem that you dont understand that alot of stuff jesus was saying was for that TIME ,PLACE AND CIRCUMSTANCE.

Last edited by dobeable; 01-10-2011 at 03:46 PM..
 
Old 01-10-2011, 03:34 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,334 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Eph.5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Heb.12:14-18
14. Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16. that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Let's finish the scripture in context that pcamps keeps quoting out of context......

Rom. 2:4-11
4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6. who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7. to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8. but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9.There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10. but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11. For there is no partiality with God.

Gal.5:19-21
19. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20. idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21. envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So the conclusion to those who practice the above will inherit not the kingdom of God..... so what do they inherit ??? I believe the written word of God says, HELL !!!
YOU BELEIVE THAT GOD SAYS HELL,but that dosent say that there in romans or galations now does it,its obvious that whats written in these scriptures is NOT AN ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR THOSE WHO DONT BELEIVE,but rather a justice system that deels with ones actions,....yes an impure being will have to accept the fate for which is suited and not be granted eternal life,BUT IT DOSENT SAY THAT HE/SHE WILL NEVER AGAIN BE PURE,,,,,,,maybe there more than just one life on the temporary level of existence,the material universe's,this is why we have poor people/starving people/abused people/and basicaly pain,its why bad things happen,its karma.

Last edited by dobeable; 01-10-2011 at 03:47 PM..
 
Old 01-10-2011, 03:51 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
From POST 171


Readers refer back to MY posts #163, 167, and 171.

pcamps, any further posts from you addressed to me on this subject shall simply be replied to (if replied to) with a reference of readers back to my above mentioned posts. They stand, and nothing need be added to what I have already said.

I'll not indulge you by engaging in petty arguments.
All you have come up with is Nicodemus was given a choice, which is not true, and Judas knew Jesus , if anyone is playing with words and being petty i would say it's you. I will say again on the authority of the scripture that telling someone they have a choice or decision to make is a lie.

Anyone who knows the gospels, knows that any character spoken of in them who met Jesus face to face were never ever given a choice or decision by Jesus to make.

Whether it was Bartimaeus,Zacchaeus, the man at the pool of Bethesda, the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, the paralytic lowered through the roof,the demon possessed man,the dead girl, the woman who bled for 12 years, the Syrophoenician Woman,the deaf and mute man,the boy with the evil spirit,the man with leprosy,the crippled woman healed on the sabbath and any other character Jesus met in the gospel accounts were not presented with a choice or decision to be made before they received anything from God.

You continually ignore the fact that ONLY God opens our eyes to see, do you even understand the simplicity of that Mike ?.In otherwords Mike, unless God opens our eyes we remain blind. The moment He does it's "Lord i believe".

You cannot choose to be born again, just like you and i could never choose to be born naturally. The natural types the spiritual

You ignore that God has concluded us all in unbelief , that he might have mercy on all

So the conclusion is you have not proved that when ever Jesus met anyone on a one one to one basis he gave them a choice or decision to make, and to say my post is petty is just a cop out, because you simply cannot prove otherwise.
 
Old 01-10-2011, 04:13 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,334 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Hi Cyber

I don't believe hell is an issue with dobeable, i believe like many others on here we are not so much talking about it but responding to the doctrine of it, and calling it out for what it is.
thanks Paul,yeah your right m8,the fear of eternal hell is completely gone from my soul and mind,although it wasnt easy,for me anyway,only because i faced it alone,with all the fear that was conditioned into me from an early age,i thought that if i go against the beleifs that i was thought then i myself was goin to hell,it probly wouldnt have been as hard if i had people like yourself,and eusebius,and a higherway,and sparrow,and heartsong and mystic,and the rest who have some very healthy outlooks on this and good interpretations of scripture.

it was tough facing all that fear as a 17 year old,infact i fought it for about a year,but let me tell ya when the truth came into my heart it opened doors that i didnt even know existed,and from there on in i havnt looked back,i know where im at,and i know im no-where near perfect,and i also know that,Yes.... God could have everyone thrown in hell for eternity,because He is all powerfull,but then that would go against everything that god is meant to be------full of,patience,understanding,tolerance,nobility,commp assion,care,,the emodiement of truth,joy and consioussness,the supreme friend of all living entitys,the Father of creation and most important,the personification of pure transcendental LOVE.
 
Old 01-10-2011, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,900,524 times
Reputation: 624
God is not going to torture anyone for any length of time, period.

We reap what we sow, period.

Any torture or torment we create ourselves and only faith in our Lord and Savior can save us from ourselves.

I have been reading 1 Corinthians and 1: 18-31 is a great discription of God handling the world.
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