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Old 01-12-2011, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,115,975 times
Reputation: 866

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Yes indeed Ironmaw. The free will gospel is such a bunch of codswallop it's untrue. It's full of holes,contradictions, pride and keeps those who believe it double minded, they chose Jesus, Jesus chose them, they found Jesus, Jesus found them, they sought Jesus, Jesus sought them,they called Jesus,Jesus called them and so on.

Christian..... there is joy and peace in the knowledge of,he sought,chose you and found you, that he sat your feet upon the rock and made your footsteps firm, drop the idea you chose Jesus,acknowledge he chose you, i guarantee,you will see the scriptures in a way you have never seen before, your faith will increase, and you will come into a greater understanding of his love for you.
EXACTLY!! The glory is HIS, not ours! HE does the justifying, HE gives us faith, HE was the obedient one, HE shows us mercy, HE draws us to Himself, HE does the choosing. It's all about HIM, not us. We are saved by grace through faith, and that NOT OF OURSELVES, it is the Gift of God. This is why Mike is confused, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The confusion is not mine. As you reject fundamental doctrine you will reject the fact that justification is by faith in Christ.

As for the issue of 'faith in Christ' versus 'faith of Christ', you may wish to study the difference between the Greek 'subjective genitive' and the 'objective genitive.

Faith "in" or "of" Jesus? - Romans 3:22



The work of Christ on the cross made justification available to those who believe in Christ for salvation. You have been shown several passages which plainly tell you that it is to those who place their faith in Christ that God imputes His righteousness by which He pronounces the one who believes, justified. This is made possible by what Christ did on the cross. Refer back to posts #69, 87, 202, 222. The passages are in those posts so I will not bother to post them again. Whether or not you and anyone else reading this are willing to objectively study the doctrine of Justification is up to you.

Here is a small link for an overview of justification.

Justification
Mike,
for the sake of others here who want to learn more, I repeat:

the Obedience of Jesus Christ caused ALL mankind to be justified. "While we were dead in sins, we were raised with Jesus Christ." See Eph. 2. The work is all God's, not ours. We need to give Him the glory. ALL of it.

And that's not the whole story.
The faith of Jesus Christ which justified all mankind is the faith that God imparts to the individual whom He draws to Himself. ("Many are called, few are chosen." Not all are saved now, but will be eventually.)

The faith of Jesus Christ which is given to the individual causes him/her to believe, and it becomes their own faith which also gives them the righteousness that they could never obtain by the Law.

So the faith is Jesus Christ's faith, not man's own. Man doesn't have faith without the Word to give it to them, as you correctly noted earlier.

However, you still do not understand that ALL mankind has been justified while it was still in sin. You and I were raised from the dead with Christ while we were yet sinners. This is what you need to see.

Blessings to all,
Brian

 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:28 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,683,103 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'd like to jump in here....

Actually, there is nothing about a choice being spoken of. Jesus is telling us that those who are not born of the Spirit:

1. Are unwilling to come to Him;
2. They do not receive Him;
3. They reject Him.
That line of thinking ignores the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at the point of Gospel hearing.

In contrast to those mentioned in John 5:40, 43; and John 12:40, the Samaritan woman in John 4; and Nicodemous in John 3 did come to Jesus, did receive Him, did not reject Him. Nicodemous might not have believed right then and there, but he did believe.

When the gospel is given, some believe and some don't. It is a personal choice.

Quote:
Paul tells us the exact same thing here:

1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

And why is this so? Paul tells us why:

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
That is why God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace at the point of Gospel hearing makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever.

We are totally dependant upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit in common grace. In common grace, the Holy Spirit acts as a human spirit so that the spiritually dead, the unbeliever, can comprehend the gospel. Common grace is the Holy Spiritís ministry in making the Gospel real to the unbeliever.




Quote:
A "free will choice for Jesus" by the natural man is not a scriptural doctrine. The whole free will concept is foreign to what Jesus taught and what Paul instructed the Church concerning. This is why the natural man must be born of the Spirit. Not only to enter the Kingdom, but to also see how this spiritual birth comes about:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You cannot choose what you cannot "see".
TO THE CONTRARY!!! NOW READ THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES AND LET THEM SINK IN.

Faith preceeds regeneration:

Ephesians 1:13 'In Him, you also after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.'

As Eph 1:13 states. First the gospel message is heard. Then faith in Christ from gospel hearing, which results in salvation.

God calls man through the gospel.

2 Thess. 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

Romans 10:17 'So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

And yet, man can say no to the gospel.

John 5:40 ''and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

John 5:43 ''I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me...

Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit;
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:59 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,115,975 times
Reputation: 866
"no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
1 cor. 12:3
The work is the Lord's, not ours. We cannot believe until God gives us His faith from above. To Him be the honor and glory forever!

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:59 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,683,103 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
EXACTLY!! The glory is HIS, not ours! HE does the justifying, HE gives us faith, HE was the obedient one, HE shows us mercy, HE draws us to Himself, HE does the choosing. It's all about HIM, not us. We are saved by grace through faith, and that NOT OF OURSELVES, it is the Gift of God. This is why Mike is confused, imo.



Mike,
for the sake of others here who want to learn more, I repeat:

the Obedience of Jesus Christ caused ALL mankind to be justified. "While we were dead in sins, we were raised with Jesus Christ." See Eph. 2. The work is all God's, not ours. We need to give Him the glory. ALL of it.

And that's not the whole story.
The faith of Jesus Christ which justified all mankind is the faith that God imparts to the individual whom He draws to Himself. ("Many are called, few are chosen." Not all are saved now, but will be eventually.)

The faith of Jesus Christ which is given to the individual causes him/her to believe, and it becomes their own faith which also gives them the righteousness that they could never obtain by the Law.

So the faith is Jesus Christ's faith, not man's own. Man doesn't have faith without the Word to give it to them, as you correctly noted earlier.

However, you still do not understand that ALL mankind has been justified while it was still in sin. You and I were raised from the dead with Christ while we were yet sinners. This is what you need to see.

Blessings to all,
Brian
No, it is you who do not understand. All mankind has not and will not be justified. That is a lie straight out of the pit of hell.

And I repeat, NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED APART FROM FAITH IN JESUS. Now you have been given the scriptures already in posts #69, 87, 202, 222, and 268.

Now I hope people will not be taken in by this asinine concept that at birth everyone is already justified. The Bible says otherwise.

OPEN YOUR EYES TO THESE PASSAGES.

Rom 4:5 'But to the one does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly (at the moment of faith in Christ), his faith is reckoned as righteousness. '

Acts 13:39 'and through Him everyone who believes is made righteous from everything you could not be made righteous from by the law of moses.

I'll use just those two verses. Do you not understand from these passages that the imputation of divine righteousness results from faith in Christ?

The one who believes in Christ is because of his faith in Christ reckoned as righteous!!!

Everyone who believes is made righteous!!!

DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?

What Jesus did at the cross is to make justification available to those who believe. No one is justified at birth. A person is born already spiritually dead and is NOT justified and will not be justified apart from faith in Christ. And if he dies without Christ he will spend the eternal future in HELL!!!
 
Old 01-12-2011, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,115,975 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it is you who do not understand. All mankind has not and will not be justified. That is a lie straight out of the pit of hell.

And I repeat, NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED APART FROM FAITH IN JESUS. Now you have been given the scriptures already in posts #69, 87, 202, 222, and 268.

Now I hope people will not be taken in by this asinine concept that at birth everyone is already justified. The Bible says otherwise.

OPEN YOUR EYES TO THESE PASSAGES.

Rom 4:5 'But to the one does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly (at the moment of faith in Christ), his faith is reckoned as righteousness. '

Acts 13:39 'and through Him everyone who believes is made righteous from everything you could not be made righteous from by the law of moses.

I'll use just those two verses. Do you not understand from these passages that the imputation of divine righteousness results from faith in Christ?

The one who believes in Christ is because of his faith in Christ reckoned as righteous!!!

Everyone who believes is made righteous!!!

DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?

What Jesus did at the cross is to make justification available to those who believe. No one is justified at birth. A person is born already spiritually dead and is NOT justified and will not be justified apart from faith in Christ. And if he dies without Christ he will spend the eternal future in HELL!!!
Yes, Mike, you are correct, everyone who believes is made righteous. It is GOD who imparts the faith of Jesus Christ to those whom He desires. Without His faith and the Holy Ghost, NO ONE can believe in him. If you believe in Jesus Christ, then you need to understand that it is HIS faith that has been imparted to you, you have no personal merit whatsoever. NO FLESH shall glory in his presence.

That's God's plan for mankind. ALL have been justified, for this simple reason: God put all mankind in condemnation. He did the first to ALL mankind without choice, and He justified the ungodly (as your scripture above confirms ) through Jesus Christ. That means the WHOLE WORLD, friend.
We need to give the glory to GOD, not to ourselves. HE is merciful, HE imparts faith by HIS OWN GRACE.

The Jews have been BLINDED BY GOD. They heard the word, but it was NOT MIXED WITH FAITH. That is GOD's faith which must be imparted to them in order for them to believe.
And they too will be brought in at the right time.
PRAISE GOD!!

I pray you are able to receive this wonderful message in your spirit today, Mike.
We need to stop condemning those whom Christ died to save!

Blessings to you,
brian
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:48 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,525 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That line of thinking ignores the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at the point of Gospel hearing.
The idea of "common grace" of the Spirit is also unscriptural. The fruit of the Spirit is:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Faith is not the fruit of man's labor to "decide" or make a "choice", but rather is the direct fruit of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God works in the heart of a sinner, faith is the outcome, faith is one of the Spirit's fruit. It is called a fruit of the Spirit because it is the Spirit's work.

Quote:
In contrast to those mentioned in John 5:40, 43; and John 12:40, the Samaritan woman in John 4; and Nicodemous in John 3 did come to Jesus, did receive Him, did not reject Him. Nicodemous might not have believed right then and there, but he did believe.

When the gospel is given, some believe and some don't. It is a personal choice.
"Coming to Jesus" does not mean walking up to Him and having a conversation. The Pharisees did this on a daily basis as did also the priests serving in the temple. The natural man will always remain in unbelief (remain faithless) until brought to life by the Spirit. Gospel faith has nothing to do with a "personal choice". It has to do with the Spirit working in the heart of those being called. Not all are spiritually called at the same time. But rest assured, all will be called:

Luk 5:32 I came not to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'

Quote:
That is why God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace at the point of Gospel hearing makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever.
Actually, the bible says the exact opposite. Unless born of the Spirit first, the natural man is unable to believe. That natural nature of the flesh must be changed first. I've already given you scriptures that prove this and I will not repost them here. Go back and read what I told you. There is no "ministry of common grace" that does not result in the fruit of the Spirit. To suggest such a thing is tantamount to saying that the work of the Spirit ("common grace" as you put it) bears thorns and thistles. That is a 17th century idea created by the Arminians to further their "free will" doctrine. Both of these Arminian doctrines that you proclaim are wrong and dishonor Jesus.

Quote:
We are totally dependant upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit in common grace. In common grace, the Holy Spirit acts as a human spirit so that the spiritually dead, the unbeliever, can comprehend the gospel. Common grace is the Holy Spiritís ministry in making the Gospel real to the unbeliever.
The Spirit of Jesus makes the Gospel known to the natural man by bringing the natural man to spiritual life first. That is the only way the natural mind can see and hear the Gospel spiritually. This work of the Spirit includes infants as well as those with mental disabilities that have no ability whatsoever to "make a choice". And everyone is born of the Spirit in the exact same way:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

Quote:
TO THE CONTRARY!!! NOW READ THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES AND LET THEM SINK IN.

Faith preceeds regeneration:

Ephesians 1:13 'In Him, you also after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.'

As Eph 1:13 states. First the gospel message is heard. Then faith in Christ from gospel hearing, which results in salvation.
The scripture tells us exactly what happens and how it happens. And I would suggest that you LET IT SINK IN!!!...lol...before making erroneous commentary about the things you know nothing of.

Here is what Paul tells us:

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

They believed what they heard. There was no "decision" made concerning to believe or not believe. The verbs "heard" (ακουσαντες), "believed" (πιστευσαντες), and "sealed" (εσφραγισθητε) are all used in the aorist tense. The Gospel message believed was the seal of the Spirit, the new birth.

Quote:
God calls man through the gospel.

2 Thess. 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

Romans 10:17 'So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
Yes, he call's spiritually those born of the Spirit. The word "hearing" is not hearing with ears of the flesh, but means rather to hear "a report". The Greek word used for "hearing" is better translated as:

Rom 10:17 so then the faith is by a report, and the report through a saying of God,

When the Gospel (the report) is spiritually heard by someone who is born of the Spirit, faith is the fruit, or result, of the Spirit's work upon that heart. Go back and read Gal 5:22.

Also, the term "faith" has the definite article in Rom 10:17. It is not a common faith, but rather "the faith". Gospel faith, faith of the Spirit. It is the faith that is being spoken of. Not man's faith of the flesh.

Quote:
And yet, man can say no to the gospel.

John 5:40 ''and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

John 5:43 ''I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me...

Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit;
The natural man will always say no to the Gospel. I've already listed the scriptures that prove this point and that you still refuse to believe. And, that the natural man will remain in this unbelief until born of the Spirit. Jesus has told us that the natural man (the flesh) can not, and will not, profit anything:

Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

And, Jesus told us that a person must be born from above to "see" the Kingdom. Actually, it's to "see" the Kingdom that is already within!

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

There is also no "decision" to be made in order to be born from above. It comes about by the Spirit of Christ, not be the will of man. It is wholly the work of Jesus' Spirit, alone.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

Joh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

The word "behoveth" or perhaps "must" (in the KJV), is translated from the Greek word δεῖ and means:

Is necessary, has need of, is inevitable in the nature of things.

The word δεῖ is being used by Jesus in the present tense, indicative mood. The term "born" is used in the aorist tense. IOW, Nicodimus must be born again in the present tense (now!) to understand what Jesus was telling him.

I won't waste further time on you. But I will leave you a taste of your own medicine...LOL

What you do with the truth is up to you. Reject it if you will, and you will reject it unless born of the Spirit. But also know this: When you stand before Jesus, He will judge you for rejecting His words and proclaiming your false gospel.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:51 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,525 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it is you who do not understand. All mankind has not and will not be justified. That is a lie straight out of the pit of hell.
I really can't let this one go unanswered. The reason you make such a statement as above is that you've never believed the Gospel. You do not believe that God justifies the ungodly. Rom 4:5. By your own testimony you've never believed it. This is why you also present a false gospel and dishonor Jesus.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:04 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,648 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I really can't let this one go unanswered. The reason you make such a statement as above is that you've never believed the Gospel. You do not believe that God justifies the ungodly. Rom 4:5. By your own testimony you've never believed it. This is why you also present a false gospel and dishonor Jesus.
I just want to comment on this,and no offense here Mike555 or the others,but preaching an eternal hell doctrine is an insult to God's character and nature,............even men,some of the most evil in history will have a limit to what torture they bestow on their fellow men,but yet you's say that God will do it for an eternity,now to any sane man that makes God worse than Hitler and all those evil beings,God IS LOVE,dont forget that,He is the embodiement of pure transcendental LOVE,so if the boot dont fit then chuck it out.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:20 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,525 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
EXACTLY!! The glory is HIS, not ours! HE does the justifying, HE gives us faith, HE was the obedient one, HE shows us mercy, HE draws us to Himself, HE does the choosing. It's all about HIM, not us. We are saved by grace through faith, and that NOT OF OURSELVES, it is the Gift of God. This is why Mike is confused, imo.
Bless you my friend. Good news is not about our choices but rather about what Christ has accomplished for us. That is the good news of the Gospel. Mike just is unable to believe it. That is why he continues to refer to the purpose of his gospel being an angelic conflict. In his mind this conflict decides the outcome of sinners, rather than the blood of Christ. Sounds like a cult belief if there ever was one. However, Paul speaks of the Gospel as being a revelation made known to those who believe:

1Co 15:1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,

The Gospel is a proclamation, not an offer. It is believed on, not decided upon. It is a proclamation of Good news concerning Christ's death and resurrection for mankind, not a story of angelic conflict.

All of these terms "make known", "good news" and "proclaim" are really not understood by Mike.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,115,975 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The Gospel is a proclamation, not an offer. It is believed on, not decided upon. It is a proclamation of Good news concerning Christ's death and resurrection for mankind, not a story of angelic conflict.
Thanks, Alabama. Your words above truly say it all!

Blessings!
brian
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