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Old 01-12-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,715 times
Reputation: 420

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Regard my post however you will, but the truth is that you think people who are not Christians are not humans or are not really existing. It is not i who am making your doctrine sound bad, it is the doctrine itself that sounds bad.

Do you tell people of other religions that they are not real? That they do not really exist?

That is a fair question. You do believe that they don't really exist and that they are less than human(or that people who believe like you are better/more than human), and that they are not "in the image of God" like you are and those who believe the way you do.
Again...you misrepresent everything I have repeatedly said and taught. If you really want to know, without assumptions, why don't you just ask, without the aggressive proselytizing?

This isn't about being "human"...this is about what humans are rewarded.

 
Old 01-12-2011, 11:59 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,320,862 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The confusion is not mine. As you reject fundamental doctrine you will reject the fact that justification is by faith in Christ.

As for the issue of 'faith in Christ' versus 'faith of Christ', you may wish to study the difference between the Greek 'subjective genitive' and the 'objective genitive.

Faith "in" or "of" Jesus? - Romans 3:22
It's rather obvious what Gary's position is on the link given. However, there is a much better book on this subject matter, and what the term "faith of Jesus" (the true reading of the text) actually means. For those interested, here it is:

Amazon.com: The Faith of Jesus Christ: The Narrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1-4:11 (The Biblical Resource Series) (9780802849571): Richard B. Hays: Books

Quote:
The work of Christ on the cross made justification available to those who believe in Christ for salvation. You have been shown several passages which plainly tell you that it is to those who place their faith in Christ that God imputes His righteousness by which He pronounces the one who believes, justified. This is made possible by what Christ did on the cross. Refer back to posts #69, 87, 202, 222. The passages are in those posts so I will not bother to post them again. Whether or not you and anyone else reading this are willing to objectively study the doctrine of Justification is up to you.

Here is a small link for an overview of justification.

Justification
That's a very poor understanding of justification and the meaning you've given it.

Scripturally, justification is a forensic act, by God, upon the sinner, and is based solely upon the merits of Christ alone. The sinner plays no role in God's declaration upon him whatsoever. It is a complete act of grace by God upon the sinner. The act of justification is meritted by Christ's blood making atonement for our sins.

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

Also, the act of justification is objective. The declaration of our justification (to be declared righteous) is a one time act and has already been pronounced upon all men:

Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

This one time declaration will also result in all men (the many) being constituted righteous.

Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

The word "constituted" here (in it's second application) is used in the future tense. It will happen for all men.

The declaration and promise of our justification does not "wait" for faith as you suppose. However, it's imputation, or rather the sinner being constituted righteous therewith, does wait for faith, as Paul clearly showed in Rom 5:19 as well as here:

Rom 4:22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.
Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

The actual act of justification (the act of being declared righteous) took place on the cross and is testified to us by the resurrection of Jesus:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Being declared righteous (used in the aorist tense [past tense] in verse 25) proceeds being imputed with righteousness (present tense for those who believe in verse 24) and for those who will be constituted as righteous (future tense) in Rom 5:19.

Also, this declaration (or pronouncement as you put it) was a ONE TIME event (Rom 5:18). Coming to faith happens at different times for each individual as the Spirit of Jesus wills. This alone demonstrates that your erroneous doctrine of imputed righteousness proceeding justification (the declaration) is false.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 01:29 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,347 posts, read 20,083,905 times
Reputation: 2114
Mike 555

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Acts 10:44-46

Peter was astonished that the Holy Spirit came on all who chose to believe the message ? No it doesn't say that

Did the Holy Spirit wait until he was sure Cornelius and those who were with him believed in their hearts, before he came upon them ?

Did the Holy Spirit give these boys a choice, before he came upon them ?
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,715 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post

Did the Holy Spirit wait until he was sure Cornelius and those who were with him believed in their hearts, before he came upon them ?
Paul...Acts 10 doesn't support your case. Cornelius was a man of God, a Gentile, and the purpose of this event, and what to learn from it, is that the focused subject, Peter, who was a Jew, believed not that Gentiles should partake, and God was merely letting him know they were. Verse 35 again, dismantles UR But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him....God only accepts those who revere Him....and again in verse 43 ....To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....I just don't see what you people see...the scriptures refute every leg you stand on....at every corner...the Holy Spirit descends on those who believe...those who confess.....God drawing someone is not the Holy Spirit in them...it is God drawing them...God cannot dwell with sin....and the Holy Spirit is Him, the liaison of him that He dwells within us only through Christ, by faith and belief in that which He rose from the dead, and who the Law, the prophets, and the patriarchs pointed to. Finally, pas, the same word used in verse 43 for whosoever, does not carry a universal theme as to the entire group at the square. It carries a universal theme onto those who heard the word, and inevitably they heard them speak with tongues with Peter, and feared/revered God....The Holy Ghost descended on those who heard the word...
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,128,414 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul...Acts 10 doesn't support your case. Cornelius was a man of God, a Gentile, and the purpose of this event, and what to learn from it, is that the focused subject, Peter, who was a Jew, believed not that Gentiles should partake, and God was merely letting him know they were. Verse 35 again, dismantles UR But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him....God only accepts those who revere Him....and again in verse 43 ....To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....I just don't see what you people see...the scriptures refute every leg you stand on....at every corner...the Holy Spirit descends on those who believe...those who confess.....God drawing someone is not the Holy Spirit in them...it is God drawing them...God cannot dwell with sin....and the Holy Spirit is Him, the liaison of him that He dwells within us only through Christ, by faith and belief in that which He rose from the dead, and who the Law, the prophets, and the patriarchs pointed to. Finally, pas, the same word used in verse 43 for whosoever, does not carry a universal theme as to the entire group at the square. It carries a universal theme onto those who heard the word, and inevitably they heard them speak with tongues with Peter, and feared/revered God....The Holy Ghost descended on those who heard the word...
Sciotamicks,
Let me ask you this:

If two men are preaching to a crowd of people about God, saying that "God is Love" and that He "loves them so much that He died for them."
Preacher A tells people that God loves them and will not abandon them ever.
Preacher B tells them that God will in fact abandon them in hell for eternity if they don't do x, y and z before they die.

Which "God of Love" is consistent with the words being preached?

Blessings,
Brian
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:46 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,347 posts, read 20,083,905 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul...Acts 10 doesn't support your case. Cornelius was a man of God, a Gentile, and the purpose of this event, and what to learn from it, is that the focused subject, Peter, who was a Jew, believed not that Gentiles should partake, and God was merely letting him know they were. Verse 35 again, dismantles UR But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him....God only accepts those who revere Him....and again in verse 43 ....To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....I just don't see what you people see...the scriptures refute every leg you stand on....at every corner...the Holy Spirit descends on those who believe...those who confess.....God drawing someone is not the Holy Spirit in them...it is God drawing them...God cannot dwell with sin....and the Holy Spirit is Him, the liaison of him that He dwells within us only through Christ, by faith and belief in that which He rose from the dead, and who the Law, the prophets, and the patriarchs pointed to. Finally, pas, the same word used in verse 43 for whosoever, does not carry a universal theme as to the entire group at the square. It carries a universal theme onto those who heard the word, and inevitably they heard them speak with tongues with Peter, and feared/revered God....The Holy Ghost descended on those who heard the word...
Sciota i understand the significance of what was happening here in regards to the Gentiles, Peter had already been told by God in a vision "
call nothing unclean that he has made clean", and that the good news was also for the gentiles too.It still does not change the fact these gentile boys did not make a choice,there was no alter call, no you better repent , no threat of eternal torment or annihilation, no threat of Jesus is coming soon you better believe before it's to late.The truth of the matter is, even the disciples were chosen of God and not the other way round.

No God does not dwell in sin, but deep calls unto deep, the seed of God in every man. Sciota i will also add that anything God does, he does within a man, not outside of him, this is another place where christianity fails,it looks for God everywhere but there, looking up to the sky's, looking at the events of the world,following every wind of doctrine,pray's to a God up in the sky, the list is as long as my arm.

Last edited by pcamps; 01-12-2011 at 03:27 PM..
 
Old 01-12-2011, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,715 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Sciotamicks,
Let me ask you this:

If two men are preaching to a crowd of people about God, saying that "God is Love" and that He "loves them so much that He died for them."
Preacher A tells people that God loves them and will not abandon them ever.
Preacher B tells them that God will in fact abandon them in hell for eternity if they don't do x, y and z before they die.

Which "God of Love" is consistent with the words being preached?

Blessings,
Brian
Both....but like I have said before, your concept of hell, is not mine. Hell Is scripturally, and was, covenantal.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,715 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Sciota i understand the significance of what was happening here in regards to the Gentiles, Peter had already been told by God in a vision "
call nothing unclean that he has made clean", and that the good news was also for the gentiles too.It still does not change the fact these gentile boys did not make a choice,there was no alter call, no you better repent , no threat of eternal torment or annihilation, no threat of Jesus is coming soon you better believe before it's to late.The truth of the matter is, even the disciples were chosen of God and not the other way round.

No God does not dwell in sin, but deep calls unto deep, the seed of God in every man.
Yes indeed they made a choice. The chose to come to that square, listen to Peter, then hear, and heard, as part of the election process God rewarded them by their conviction....And they of the circumcision...the holy spirit descended upon them....and yes there was a threat....

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

Peter lastly calls out to the rest of the pas, who hadn't heard....

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

If you aren't circumcised, what then? No God in you. Circumcision is an act of faith....by flesh in Abraham's case, by heart in Paul's letter. The meaning is the same, it is an act of free will, from man, to honor God, and by that, God decides what measure of it is, and blesses those...with the Holy Spirit.

Abraham didn't cut his foreskin because God drew him to it, or made him do it. He did it, because he believed, and HAD FAITH. Free will.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,128,414 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Both....but like I have said before, your concept of hell, is not mine. Hell Is scripturally, and was, covenantal.
I think before discussing hell or convenants or anything else, we need to clarify exactly what Love is!! What's the use of talking about something like "hell" that we haven't seen, if we can't even agree on what Love is, which we can know and feel here and now??

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-12-2011, 03:33 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,936,301 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Sciota i understand the significance of what was happening here in regards to the Gentiles, Peter had already been told by God in a vision "
call nothing unclean that he has made clean", and that the good news was also for the gentiles too.It still does not change the fact these gentile boys did not make a choice,there was no alter call, no you better repent , no threat of eternal torment or annihilation, no threat of Jesus is coming soon you better believe before it's to late.The truth of the matter is, even the disciples were chosen of God and not the other way round.

No God does not dwell in sin, but deep calls unto deep, the seed of God in every man. Sciota i will also add that anything God does, he does within a man, not outside of him, this is another place where christianity fails,it looks for God everywhere but there, looking up to the sky's, looking at the events of the world,following every wind of doctrine,pray's to a God up in the sky, the list is as long as my arm.
k:
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