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Old 01-13-2011, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,116,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That should have been post #333.

The work of Christ on the cross made it possible for those who believe in Christ to be imputed with His righteousness and therefore be declared righteous -Justified. Justification refers to the fact of being made righteous by means of the imputation of God's very own righteousness to the one who believes in Christ.

All of humanity is physically born already spiritually dead. No one who is spiritually dead is justified. They are polar opposites. In order for any member of the human race to appropriate the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, he must place his faith in Christ for salvation.

Every thing that Christ did on the cross with regard to redemption, unlimited atonement, expiation, propitation, imputation, justification, regeneration, and positional truth result in eternal life only to those who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. Jesus died for everyone. But until you make a decision to trust Christ for salvation, you remain under condemnation and are NOT justified.

Here again is post #333.

Apart from faith in Jesus Christ, no one is justified before God. It is because of what Christ did on the cross, that the one who believes in Christ is justified.

Imputation credits to the account of the one who believes in Christ, the righteousness of Christ. Justification then declares or pronounces him righteous or justified.

On the basis of the righteousness of Christ imputed to the one who believes, God declares the undeserving sinner justified, vindicated, acceptable to Himself. God is free to declare him free from guilt because the believer possesses the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 4:3 'For what does the Scipture say? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:5 'But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned (credited to his account) as righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 'nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ... Read it in the Greek transliteration and translation in this Greek/English Interlinear Bible. Galatians 2:16 Biblos Interlinear Bible


With regard to Galatians 2:16, whether you want to argue that it is saying faith of Christ, or faith in Christ, it says WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED.

To understand justification or any other doctrine, you must take into account all pertinent scripture. Not just one or two passages taken out of context.


For those interested, here is an overview of the doctrine of Justification. Justification
Mike,
I checked your link to Gal. 2:16. The original greek shows that it was translated wrong in the NASB. It ought to read "faith OF Jesus Christ", not "faith in Jesus Christ" as is mistakenly written.

As I mentioned the other day, we are saved by Jesus' faith, not by any type of faith we could try to scrape together ourselves. Very important difference. God gets the glory, not us.

Blessings,
brian

 
Old 01-13-2011, 10:18 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,838 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, in post #133 I have used scripture that flat out tells you that the imputation of divine righteousness which results in the pronouncement of justification to the believer, occurs through faith. Not before. Justification means to be made righteous. The believer is made righteous by means of receiving the imputation of Christs very own righteousness at the moment of faith in Him and therefore declared justified - made righteous.
There is no scripture referenced in post #133 that I can find. Perhaps you're talking about another post? Regardless, our discussion is about justification.

God imputing righteousness (λογιζεται εις δικαιοσυνην) IS NOT the same as God declaring righteous (δικαιουντα). The Greek word δικαιουντα is usually translated as "justification" in most English bibles and literally means to declare righteous, as the YLT translates it. However, it does not mean impute to righteousness. This is the distinction that I've been telling you for the last year or so and that you've been unable to understand. This is also the reason why your theology is wrong as well as your ET'ing being a false doctrine that dishonors Christ.

In Romans 4:5, Paul shows the difference between the two words: δικαιοσυνην and δικαιουντα, and how they are to be understood. Here is how Paul explains it. I'll use Youngs Literal Translation here:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous (δικαιουντα) the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness (λογιζεται εις δικαιοσυνην):

The one who believes on Jesus who is δικαιουντα the impious, his faith is λογιζεται εις δικαιοσυνην.

Jesus is declaring righteous the impious ones. The impious ARE NOT believers who have first been imputed with righteousness. They are impious ones. Here is the meaning of the Greek word ασεβη, translated as impious or in other translations as ungodly:

ασεβη: Godless, without fear and reverence of God. It does not mean irreligious, but one who actively practices the opposite of what the fear of God demands.

Here is how Thayer describes these sinners:

1) destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious.

These sinners have not made a decision for Christ...LOL Rather, they condemn God and have no fear of Him. That is clear...OK?

Here is also how that Greek word ασεβη is used in other portions of scripture, to make this point even more sharper:

Jud 1:4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious (ασεβη), the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying,

This person that Jude calls impious is the very person that Paul tells us in Rom 4:5 is being declared righteous (or justified, in the NASV) by God. And that declaration is being used in the present tense. Now, the tense of the verb is very important here. The text does not say He will declare them righteous after they believe (future tense), but rather that God IS declaring them righteous NOW, in the present tense. Right now, as we discuss this subject of justification, Jesus is declaring righteous those who are without fear and reverence of God and who actively practice the opposite of what the fear of God demands. That sinner, the impious sinner, in that state of being, IS being declared righteous by Jesus. It is in that state of being that both you and I were declared righteous (justified). Praise God for it my friend!

Jesus IS declaring the ungodly and impious sinners as righteous. These sinners are not believers mind you, of whom Paul calls saints in Rom 1:7, but rather unbelievers , those without faith and reverence of God, or as Jude calls them "denying" Jesus. These impious and ungodly ones are said by scripture to be declared righteous (translated as justified in your bible, the NASV).

Now, we really can't proceed further with this concept of justification until you grasp this truth.

The rest of your post I'll have to refrain from commenting on for now...

We first need to get this portion of justification settled before moving on. OK?
 
Old 01-13-2011, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 22,544,005 times
Reputation: 10428
I totally agree with the OP. I believe the concept of burning in hell for eternity is a man-made idea invented to scare people and try and control behavior. It makes zero sense.

My mom always used the threat of hell against me... trying to get me to believe that if I was bad, I would burn in fire for eternity. Really? Eternity??? Not to mention, the human mind shuts down under extreme pain. So I am to believe that my mind would be adjusted so that I could somehow remain conscious for eternity while I was in a pain more extreme than I could ever experience on earth? I think by 3rd grade I stopped believing in such nonsense.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 10:52 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,289 posts, read 20,026,374 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
I totally agree with the OP. I believe the concept of burning in hell for eternity is a man-made idea invented to scare people and try and control behavior. It makes zero sense.

My mom always used the threat of hell against me... trying to get me to believe that if I was bad, I would burn in fire for eternity. Really? Eternity??? Not to mention, the human mind shuts down under extreme pain. So I am to believe that my mind would be adjusted so that I could somehow remain conscious for eternity while I was in a pain more extreme than I could ever experience on earth? I think by 3rd grade I stopped believing in such nonsense.
Good post, but God can keep your mind from shutting down, would be the response from those who believe in eternal torment.Because his ways are not ours, and he will not allow relief of any kind from being tortured, because he's fair
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:00 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,838 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Mike,
I checked your link to Gal. 2:16. The original greek shows that it was translated wrong in the NASB. It ought to read "faith OF Jesus Christ", not "faith in Jesus Christ" as is mistakenly written.

As I mentioned the other day, we are saved by Jesus' faith, not by any type of faith we could try to scrape together ourselves. Very important difference. God gets the glory, not us.

Blessings,
brian
I don't think Mike actually reads his own links. If you look at an interlinear (Mike's, or any other) the text is as you've said "faith of Jesus".

The reason I think modern translations do not make this distinction is that the translation committees translate with preconceived doctrines established in their minds. It's really unfortunate when this happens. A lot of biblical truth is overshadowed by the doctrines and precepts of man. Especially when trying to dig deeper into spiritual truth.

Here is how Galatians is translated in my interlinear, with Strong's reference numbers given as an aid:

Gal 2:16 ειδοτεςG1492 [G5761] KNOWING οτιG3754 THAT ουG3756 δικαιουταιG1344 [G5743] IS NOT JUSTIFIED ανθρωποςG444 A MAN εξG1537 BY εργωνG2041 WORKS νομουG3551 OF LAW, εανG1437 μηG3361 BUT διαG1223 THROUGH πιστεωςG4102 FAITH ιησουG2424 OF JESUS χριστουG5547 CHRIST, καιG2532 ALSO ημειςG2249 WE ειςG1519 ON χριστονG5547 CHRIST ιησουνG2424 JESUS επιστευσαμενG4100 [G5656] BELIEVED, ιναG2443 THAT δικαιωθωμενG1344 [G5686] WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED εκG1537 BY πιστεωςG4102 FAITH χριστουG5547 OF CHRIST, καιG2532 AND ουκG3756 NOT εξG1537 BY εργωνG2041 WORKS νομουG3551 OF LAW; διοτιG1360 BECAUSE ουG3756 δικαιωθησεταιG1344 [G5701] SHALL BE JUSTIFIED εξG1537 BY εργωνG2041 WORKS νομουG3551 OF LAW πασαG3956 ANY σαρξG4561 FLESH.

Justification is always connected to the faith of Jesus. How I've always understood this is that it was Jesus' faithfulness, in going to the cross and dying for our sins that justified us. As in Rom 5:8-9:

Rom 5:8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 22,544,005 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Good post, but God can keep your mind from shutting down, would be the response from those who believe in eternal torment.Because his ways are not ours, and he will not allow relief of any kind from being tortured, because he's fair
I figured that would be the response from someone who believes in an eternal hell. I tend to think "hell" is a concept we can experience in our daily lives. People can be very wealthy, yet totally unhappy, depressed, drug-addicted and miserable. My grandmother was dirt-poor, lived in a tiny, run-down house with second-hand furniture, had no car, yet was one of the happiest, most positive people I know. I tend to think the concepts of heaven and hell may be all in our minds and relates to our lives on earth.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:03 AM
 
20,325 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Mike,
I checked your link to Gal. 2:16. The original greek shows that it was translated wrong in the NASB. It ought to read "faith OF Jesus Christ", not "faith in Jesus Christ" as is mistakenly written.

As I mentioned the other day, we are saved by Jesus' faith, not by any type of faith we could try to scrape together ourselves. Very important difference. God gets the glory, not us.

Blessings,
brian

No. In Galatians 2:16 pisteos Christou Iesue is an objective genitive (faith in Christ Jesus) It is not a subjective genitive (faith of Christ Jesus). What you looked at in the link was the way the translaters chose to translate pisteos Christou Iesue as a subjective genitive rather than an objective genitive.

In some passages, either translation - objective genitive or subjective genitive is grammatically possible.

What is absolutely clear in Galatian 2:16 is the part of the passage that states with no doubt whatsoever '...we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified - made righteous by faith in Christ Jesus.

WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED - MADE RIGHTEOUS


How is it that people can just so totally and completely ignore what is so plainly stated? WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED - MADE RIGHTEOUS

This link can serve as an introduction to subjective and objective genitives.

Faith "in" or "of" Jesus? - Romans 3:22

And it seems that no matter how many times I say it, it just does not sink in, that faith in Christ is non-meritorious. Man does not get any credit for having faith in Christ. Eph 2:8-9 makes that clear. And yet people still come back and think that if you must have faith in order to be saved, then that means that man gets the credit. Is that the vaunted higher understanding of the Scriptures that the Universalists claim that they have?
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:14 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,838 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That should have been post #333.

The work of Christ on the cross made it possible for those who believe in Christ to be imputed with His righteousness and therefore be declared righteous -Justified. Justification refers to the fact of being made righteous by means of the imputation of God's very own righteousness to the one who believes in Christ.

All of humanity is physically born already spiritually dead. No one who is spiritually dead is justified. They are polar opposites. In order for any member of the human race to appropriate the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, he must place his faith in Christ for salvation.

Every thing that Christ did on the cross with regard to redemption, unlimited atonement, expiation, propitation, imputation, justification, regeneration, and positional truth result in eternal life only to those who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. Jesus died for everyone. But until you make a decision to trust Christ for salvation, you remain under condemnation and are NOT justified.

Here again is post #333.

Apart from faith in Jesus Christ, no one is justified before God. It is because of what Christ did on the cross, that the one who believes in Christ is justified.

Imputation credits to the account of the one who believes in Christ, the righteousness of Christ. Justification then declares or pronounces him righteous or justified.

On the basis of the righteousness of Christ imputed to the one who believes, God declares the undeserving sinner justified, vindicated, acceptable to Himself. God is free to declare him free from guilt because the believer possesses the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 4:3 'For what does the Scipture say? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:5 'But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned (credited to his account) as righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 'nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ... Read it in the Greek transliteration and translation in this Greek/English Interlinear Bible. Galatians 2:16 Biblos Interlinear Bible


With regard to Galatians 2:16, whether you want to argue that it is saying faith of Christ, or faith in Christ, it says WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED.

To understand justification or any other doctrine, you must take into account all pertinent scripture. Not just one or two passages taken out of context.


For those interested, here is an overview of the doctrine of Justification. Justification
Alright, now we have something to work with.

Rom 4:3: This is speaking of imputing righteousness, not declaring righteous.

Rom 4:5: See my earlier post on this text.

Gal 2:16: Each time justification is used it is linked to the faith OF Jesus. It's true that believers believe, but that belief is on the faith OF Jesus to justify them, not their own faith wherein righteousness is imputed to them. Do you see the difference?

If you actually read your exegesis of these passages, you do not actually quote the verses correctly. I'll give you an example here:

Mike says:

WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED.

You put a period at the end of justified. That really is not what the text says. Here is what it says:

The scriptures say:

we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ,

There is quite a difference here, wouldn't you agree?

The problem I see here is that you really have an agenda that is anti-Christ. When scripture says by the faith of Jesus, you omit it. Why is that?
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:35 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,838 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. In Galatians 2:16 pisteos Christou Iesue is an objective genitive (faith in Christ Jesus) It is not a subjective genitive (faith of Christ Jesus). What you looked at in the link was the way the translaters chose to translate pisteos Christou Iesue as a subjective genitive rather than an objective genitive.

In some passages, either translation - objective genitive or subjective genitive is grammatically possible.

What is absolutely clear in Galatian 2:16 is the part of the passage that states with no doubt whatsoever '...we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified - made righteous by faith in Christ Jesus.

WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED - MADE RIGHTEOUS

How is it that people can just so totally and completely ignore what is so plainly stated? WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED - MADE RIGHTEOUS

This link can serve as an introduction to subjective and objective genitives.

Faith "in" or "of" Jesus? - Romans 3:22

And it seems that no matter how many times I say it, it just does not sink in, that faith in Christ is non-meritorious. Man does not get any credit for having faith in Christ. Eph 2:8-9 makes that clear. And yet people still come back and think that if you must have faith in order to be saved, then that means that man gets the credit. Is that the vaunted higher understanding of the Scriptures that the Universalists claim that they have?
It isn't that the word χριστου is objective, but rather that it is being translated or interpreted as such by the translator.

For example, when the scriptures talk of Abraham and faith, the translator has to decide to translate it as faith IN Abraham, or faith OF Abraham. Do you see the difference here? The translator decides if it makes better sense to say faith of Abraham, or faith in Abraham. The doctrinal position of translators will have a major impact on how the text will ultimately be understood by their readers.

Regarding Eph 2:9: When scripture says no one may boast, it means just that. There is nothing that one could boast about. There is nothing a sinner does to boast about. It isn't that God says: You have to do this and that and not boast. But rather, there is nothing you've done so you have nothing to boast of.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:36 AM
 
20,325 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
There is no scripture referenced in post #133 that I can find. Perhaps you're talking about another post? Regardless, our discussion is about justification.

God imputing righteousness (λογιζεται εις δικαιοσυνην) IS NOT the same as God declaring righteous (δικαιουντα). The Greek word δικαιουντα is usually translated as "justification" in most English bibles and literally means to declare righteous, as the YLT translates it. However, it does not mean impute to righteousness. This is the distinction that I've been telling you for the last year or so and that you've been unable to understand. This is also the reason why your theology is wrong as well as your ET'ing being a false doctrine that dishonors Christ.

In Romans 4:5, Paul shows the difference between the two words: δικαιοσυνην and δικαιουντα, and how they are to be understood. Here is how Paul explains it. I'll use Youngs Literal Translation here:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous (δικαιουντα) the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness (λογιζεται εις δικαιοσυνην):

The one who believes on Jesus who is δικαιουντα the impious, his faith is λογιζεται εις δικαιοσυνην.

Jesus is declaring righteous the impious ones. The impious ARE NOT believers who have first been imputed with righteousness. They are impious ones. Here is the meaning of the Greek word ασεβη, translated as impious or in other translations as ungodly:

ασεβη: Godless, without fear and reverence of God. It does not mean irreligious, but one who actively practices the opposite of what the fear of God demands.

Here is how Thayer describes these sinners:

1) destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious.

These sinners have not made a decision for Christ...LOL Rather, they condemn God and have no fear of Him. That is clear...OK?

Here is also how that Greek word ασεβη is used in other portions of scripture, to make this point even more sharper:

Jud 1:4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious (ασεβη), the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying,

This person that Jude calls impious is the very person that Paul tells us in Rom 4:5 is being declared righteous (or justified, in the NASV) by God. And that declaration is being used in the present tense. Now, the tense of the verb is very important here. The text does not say He will declare them righteous after they believe (future tense), but rather that God IS declaring them righteous NOW, in the present tense. Right now, as we discuss this subject of justification, Jesus is declaring righteous those who are without fear and reverence of God and who actively practice the opposite of what the fear of God demands. That sinner, the impious sinner, in that state of being, IS being declared righteous by Jesus. It is in that state of being that both you and I were declared righteous (justified). Praise God for it my friend!

Jesus IS declaring the ungodly and impious sinners as righteous. These sinners are not believers mind you, of whom Paul calls saints in Rom 1:7, but rather unbelievers , those without faith and reverence of God, or as Jude calls them "denying" Jesus. These impious and ungodly ones are said by scripture to be declared righteous (translated as justified in your bible, the NASV).

Now, we really can't proceed further with this concept of justification until you grasp this truth.

The rest of your post I'll have to refrain from commenting on for now...

We first need to get this portion of justification settled before moving on. OK?

That should have been post #333.

Paul is saying in Romans 4:5 that God justifies the ungodly at the moment they believe in Christ. Before faith in Christ, everyone is ungodly. At the moment they believe in Christ they are imputed with Christ's righteousness and declared just - made righteous.

And we are NOT moving on. You refer back to my posts on the matter. Post #69, 87, 202, 222, 268, 306, 333, 347, 381 and now, 389.

It is plainly obvious that those of you who close your eyes to those passages which tell you straight out that you must believe in Christ in order to be made righteous - justified, just do not register with you.

Everyone is physically born spiritually dead and is therefore not justifed at birth, they are not justified automatically because of the work of Christ at the cross. The work of Christ on the cross brings justification to those who place their faith in Christ. Condemnation and justification are polar opposites.

I told you before. We have had this 'discussion' concerning justification a long time ago, and you didn't learn a thing. I'll not waste my time going through it again. From here on, I will simply refer people back to the above mentioned posts. Those who think that all men are justified have no concept of the matter and will doubtless continue to believe it, not matter what else is said.
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