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Old 01-13-2011, 10:58 AM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Alright, now we have something to work with.

Rom 4:3: This is speaking of imputing righteousness, not declaring righteous.

Rom 4:5: See my earlier post on this text.

Gal 2:16: Each time justification is used it is linked to the faith OF Jesus. It's true that believers believe, but that belief is on the faith OF Jesus to justify them, not their own faith wherein righteousness is imputed to them. Do you see the difference?

If you actually read your exegesis of these passages, you do not actually quote the verses correctly. I'll give you an example here:

Mike says:

WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED.

You put a period at the end of justified. That really is not what the text says. Here is what it says:

The scriptures say:

we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ,

There is quite a difference here, wouldn't you agree?

The problem I see here is that you really have an agenda that is anti-Christ. When scripture says by the faith of Jesus, you omit it. Why is that?
The problem is that you and those like you mentally block out the part that says 'WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED', which is why I emphasized it. TO NO AVAIL.

Readers may refer back to post #381 with regard to the above posters comments. Read it carefully and objectively and understand what I wrote.

Universalists want to believe that everyone is already saved and therefore already justified, or that everyone will utimately be saved. You alabamastorm are one of the former. And because you see everything though your universalist gogles, you just can't see things in the light of reality.


I am done with this subject. Believe what you want.

 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:11 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That should have been post #333.

Paul is saying in Romans 4:5 that God justifies the ungodly at the moment they believe in Christ. Before faith in Christ, everyone is ungodly. At the moment they believe in Christ they are imputed with Christ's righteousness and declared just - made righteous.
No. That is not what the text says. Read what the text says again. The text contradicts your doctrines, I know, and everyone that reads that text will surely see this too. Here, lets read it again:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

There is nothing being said about the impious believing or doing anything other than, well, being impious and ungodly...LOL However, this text does tell us what God is doing for them. Namely, declaring righteous the impious.

Quote:
And we are NOT moving on. You refer back to my posts on the matter. Post #69, 87, 202, 222, 268, 306, 333, 347, 381 and now, 389.

It is plainly obvious that those of you who close your eyes to those passages which tell you straight out that you must believe in Christ in order to be made righteous - justified, just do not register with you.
Again, this is the distinction that you are refusing to acknowledge. Imputation to righteousness is not the same thing as being declared righteous. Two different Greek words/phrases are being used by Paul. Each word/phrase has a different meaning attached to it. You just need to be truthful with yourself to acknowledge it.

Quote:
Everyone is physically born spiritually dead and is therefore not justifed at birth, they are not justified automatically because of the work of Christ at the cross. The work of Christ on the cross brings justification to those who place their faith in Christ. Condemnation and justification are polar opposites.
Jesus says otherwise. Infants and small children are justified, even at birth, on the merits of Christ work alone.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

And consequently, all infants and children will be saved by the life of Jesus.

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

Quote:
I told you before. We have had this 'discussion' concerning justification a long time ago, and you didn't learn a thing. I'll not waste my time going through it again. From here on, I will simply refer people back to the above mentioned posts. Those who think that all men are justified have no concept of the matter and will doubtless continue to believe it, not matter what else is said.
Mike, you're really not wasting time "on me". I'm really not here for "your time". Don't be so proud and puffed up to think so...LOL You do humor me though, and I thank you for that.

I'm simply using you as a spring board to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. I'm here for those that come to this site hoping to hear the glorious truth of the Gospel. That Jesus is (in the present tense) justifying them by His completed work on the cross. And those who believe this truth will, like Abraham, be imputed with the righteousness of Christ.

I want the world to glorify God and know His love and kindness towards them. I even want you to know it and proclaim it. That's why I'm having this discussion with you.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:35 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The problem is that you and those like you mentally block out the part that says 'WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS, THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED', which is why I emphasized it. TO NO AVAIL.

Readers may refer back to post #381 with regard to the above posters comments. Read it carefully and objectively and understand what I wrote.

Universalists want to believe that everyone is already saved and therefore already justified, or that everyone will utimately be saved. You alabamastorm are one of the former. And because you see everything though your universalist gogles, you just can't see things in the light of reality.

I am done with this subject. Believe what you want.
The problem I see is that you've never really believed the Gospel, Mike. And you testify to this in your responses to me. I know you believe in your faith, and what you think it does for you. But have you ever really trusted on Jesus alone, without relying on your faith or some other decision you've made?

Throw away the doctrines and precepts of man and your dead teachers. They've only confused you. Open your bible and read it with fresh eyes and ears. Get a literal translation like the YLT or LITV. Call on Jesus before you do so and ask Him to study along side you.

I think God will keep this subject on your heart until you believe it. You'll be back...
 
Old 01-13-2011, 11:39 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
LOL...no...my friend..I am fully sane, fully educated, fully grasped my faith in Christ. It may be hard for you to understand, and that is because of your reformed teaching that has been engrained in you.

I have provided several links in the past...now I will provide one simple one, yet there are so much more. If you think you are capable of presenting your faith, to the world that believes in Atheism...that man is an evolved being, as the numerous evidences that outweigh creation ex nihilo, as opposed to eventual evolution...you will fall, you will stumble at the table of debate. You will not only stumble, in time, much shorter than in far times ahead, will your brand of faith, your naive rendition of what the Bible, the holy scriptures aside it, and what the Gospel really teaches, will fade away like a whisper in distant times past. I chose to rethink the Bible, in light of ancient history, not in light of 21st century befuddled in confusion over the ancients with a backward reformative existentialism, and attempt to apply cultural, theological, sociological, and historical evidence that not only confirms every step, LITERALLY, of the holy word, but it cements any attempt at misrepresentation of the the saints who painstakingly let down their lives, along with God Himself, for a people that called upon Him....with all of their heart.

Christianity has no room for UR.
Period.

Come join the debate:

The BioLogos Forum

I challenge you to give the PHD in evolutionary science who believes in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, your rendition of Christianity.

Right, that is why no one in the early church taught anything even remotely similar to what you teach ... ?

UR was the original gospel taught and believed by the apostles and the early church. UR is the only true gospel, all other contrary doctrines are false doctrines. God is the savior of every person and he will have every person to be saved, even if you can't believe it. Just like you don't believe in the resurrection or in the literal coming of Christ to literally subdue the nations. What you teach is nothing more than fundamentalist gnosticism.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 12:06 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,930,857 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

It is plainly obvious that those of you who close your eyes to those passages which tell you straight out that you must believe in Christ in order to be made righteous - justified, just do not register with you.
and its obvious that you have closed your eyes to a better understanding of the scriptures,and what i mean in better is that,if what you are saying is true then the worst fate of all of history and mankind is about to hit alot of innocent people,and its never goin to end,and if what the URers are saying is true then that is better than what you are saying,Im positivily sure that God has the best plan for humankind,because thats His nature to be good.sure people are goin to learn ,some the hard way,but your making God out to be worse than Satan.im sure their is a BETTER understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555 View Post
Everyone is physically born spiritually dead and is therefore not justifed at birth, they are not justified automatically because of the work of Christ at the cross. The work of Christ on the cross brings justification to those who place their faith in Christ. Condemnation and justification are polar opposites.
but yet children who are supposidly spiritualy dead are ment to get an automatic pass into heaven if they die young.,,,,so many flaws in your philosophy.......religion without philosophy is mere sentimentality,and philosophy without religion is just mental speculation.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,186 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Condemnation and justification are polar opposites.
At least we agree on this part..!

Adam brought condemnation to all mankind.

Jesus brought justification to all mankind. ALL.

This is exactly why Jesus is compared to Adam, and this is why He is the Last Adam.

Blessings!
Brian
 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:48 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
At least we agree on this part..!

Adam brought condemnation to all mankind.

Jesus brought justification to all mankind. ALL.

This is exactly why Jesus is compared to Adam, and this is why He is the Last Adam.

Blessings!
Brian
The work of Christ on the cross made justification available to those who believe in Christ for salvation. Christ died for all, but it is only those who place their faith in Christ who are declared righteous.

Justification means that the believer has been declared righteous by God as the result of receiving the imputation of Christs righteousness at the point of faith in Christ.

Abraham for instance wasn't declared righteous- justified until he believed God.

Romans 4:3 'For what does the scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned - accounted to him as righteousness.

Romans 3:22 'even the righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all those who believe...

Now just set aside for the moment whether the passage is saying 'faith in Christ' or 'faith of Christ', and focus on the part that says 'for those who believe. The passage plainly states that it is those who believe who are justified. It cannot be any more clear.

With regard to Romans 4:5 which says 'To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

That other fella on this thread said with a straight face that in that passage there is nothing about believing.

He said the following:
''There is nothing being said about the impious believing or doing anything other than, well, being impious and ungodly...LOL However, this text does tell us what God is doing for them. Namely, declaring righteous the impious.''

He just blocked out the part about it being those who believe who are declared righteous. Just as you block it out.


God justifies the ungodly at the point when they believe in Christ. The believer remains a sinner after salvation, but he is justified because he has placed his faith in Christ who performed the condition for our justification.

It is through faith in Jesus Christ, who did the work for our justification, by which the one who believes in Christ receives the righteousness of Christ and as a result is declared righteous.

Imputation credits to the account of the one who believes, the righteousness of Christ. Justification declares the believer righteous.

Christ alone performed the condition of our justification and
salvation. However, our personal faith is the condition for obtaining that justification.

And you know, you can easily research this. I'm not misunderstanding or making anything up. But as long as you hold to universalism you will never be able to be objective and properly understand the issue.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Right, that is why no one in the early church taught anything even remotely similar to what you teach ... ?
Is that your defense? LOL....lots has changed in the academic world since then...let alone, it is quite clear the flood was not global....and that man...read carefully......evolved....unless you have scientific and Biblical proof that is not the case.....you are reaching for a straw man....I for one, can prove to you scripturally, that Adam....was NOT created ex nihilo....so can many others, that have taken the time to research it, and weigh out the evidence...unlike you it seems.

Quote:
UR was the original gospel taught and believed by the apostles
No it wasn't.

Quote:
What you teach is nothing more than fundamentalist gnosticism.
No...that would be you.,..since you believe that everyone, regardless of faith...has a spirit. The ancients did not think this way, neither did the Hebrews, and this concept spawned from Stoic....and read closely....Gnostic philosophies.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,186 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The work of Christ on the cross made justification available to those who believe in Christ for salvation. Christ died for all, but it is only those who place their faith in Christ who are declared righteous.

Justification means that the believer has been declared righteous by God as the result of receiving the imputation of Christs righteousness at the point of faith in Christ.

Abraham for instance wasn't declared righteous- justified until he believed God.

Romans 4:3 'For what does the scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned - accounted to him as righteousness.

Romans 3:22 'even the righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all those who believe...

Now just set aside for the moment whether the passage is saying 'faith in Christ' or 'faith of Christ', and focus on the part that says 'for those who believe. The passage plainly states that it is those who believe who are justified. It cannot be any more clear.

With regard to Romans 4:5 which says 'To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

That other fella on this thread said with a straight face that in that passage there is nothing about believing.

He said the following:
''There is nothing being said about the impious believing or doing anything other than, well, being impious and ungodly...LOL However, this text does tell us what God is doing for them. Namely, declaring righteous the impious.''

He just blocked out the part about it being those who believe who are declared righteous. Just as you block it out.


God justifies the ungodly at the point when they believe in Christ. The believer remains a sinner after salvation, but he is justified because he has placed his faith in Christ who performed the condition for our justification.

It is through faith in Jesus Christ, who did the work for our justification, by which the one who believes in Christ receives the righteousness of Christ and as a result is declared righteous.

Imputation credits to the account of the one who believes, the righteousness of Christ. Justification declares the believer righteous.

Christ alone performed the condition of our justification and
salvation. However, our personal faith is the condition for obtaining that justification.

And you know, you can easily research this. I'm not misunderstanding or making anything up. But as long as you hold to universalism you will never be able to be objective and properly understand the issue.
Hi Mike,
Your posts are usually too long for me, I will probably skip some, but here are a couple thoughts that stood out while reading the above:

- I don't believe we have "personal faith." To me, it is God's own faith which He imparts to only a few people in this age. But the difference is not insignificant, since God alone gets the glory. The faith of Jesus Christ is just that: His. That's part of why He was successful!

- Justification, imo, is not "available," but a reality for all. Just as Adam's condemnation was a reality for all mankind, it seems quite just and right that God would offer a remedy which was at least as powerful and binding as the sickness.
That's why Jesus is the Last Adam, imo.

Salvation however is not given to all right now. But those who receive it have no merit, since they are mere recipients, they have in no way "asked for" or deserved it.

So all are justified, not all are believers (yet).

I'll be back tomorrow, it's late here!

Blessings!
Brian
 
Old 01-13-2011, 03:36 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
and its obvious that you have closed your eyes to a better understanding of the scriptures,and what i mean in better is that,if what you are saying is true then the worst fate of all of history and mankind is about to hit alot of innocent people,and its never goin to end,and if what the URers are saying is true then that is better than what you are saying,Im positivily sure that God has the best plan for humankind,because thats His nature to be good.sure people are goin to learn ,some the hard way,but your making God out to be worse than Satan.im sure their is a BETTER understanding.


but yet children who are supposidly spiritualy dead are ment to get an automatic pass into heaven if they die young.,,,,so many flaws in your philosophy.......religion without philosophy is mere sentimentality,and philosophy without religion is just mental speculation.

I told you before, there is no philosophy involved here, and no religion. This is all fundamental Bible doctrine. It is all revealed in the Scriptures. Truth is what it is.

Man is not innocent. He is guilty in the eyes of God. That is the very reason Jesus came into the world. To pay the penalty for man's sins. Now the issue in salvation is whether or not you will believe in Christ.

I have explained all this in prior posts and you are unable and unwilling to understand.

I absolutely assure you that the universalists do not have a higher understanding of the scriptures.

I will give you an example of what they believe and their confusion. According to the particular universalist you talk to:

1) There is no hell.

2) There is a hell but it is temporary.

3) Hell is in you.

4) There is no Satan.

5) Satan is us.

6) There is no heaven.

7) There is a heaven but you don't go there when you die.

8) Heaven is in us.

9) The Bible is not the word of God,

10) The Bible is the word of God.

11) The God of the Old Testament is evil. (The ones who believe this don't know that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament and so don't realize that they just called Jesus evil.)

And so on and so on and so on. A Higher understanding????? NOT HARDLY!!!

You know, the skeptics who say that they used to believe the Bible claim that they too have come to a higher understanding of the Bible and therefore don't believe it anymore.

God has clearly revealed in the Bible whether you accept that fact or not, that all who do not believe in Christ for salvation before they depart from this earth, are going to be eternally separated from God in hell.
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