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Old 01-08-2011, 05:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Absolutely!!!

 
Old 01-08-2011, 05:23 PM
 
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I know of parents who have murdered their children because they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment. I guess it worked---the children certainly didn't end up in hell, but the parents went to prison for life to save them. No greater love and all that, I guess.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 05:33 PM
 
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yes, it's evil the way such a 'supposedly' true doctrine can torture ppl..there are millions of ppl who have tortured themselves daily wondering if their loved ones were rotting in hell at the moment..or would be in the future.it's insane.it literally can drive someone crazy.
enough.Jesus has it covered.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 05:37 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
That's because Mike555 doesn't really believe Christ accomplished anything when Christ bore the sin of all mankind and that God accepted that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are about the fifth person in recent days to take it upon himself to tell me what I do and do not believe. I have explained on various threads in detail what it is all about.

Jesus accomplished exactly what He came into the world to do. To pay the penalty for man's sins, thereby removing them as a barrier between man and God. The issue in salvation therefore is not sin, but rather, your attitude concerning Jesus Christ.
You just proved my point.
Here is what you believe:

Jesus paid for all your sins.

If you don't believe Jesus paid for all your sins then Jesus did not pay for all your sins.

ergo: Jesus did pay for all your sins but it was a worthless act.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 06:03 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,204,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God knew who would believe in Christ for salvation, and who wouldn't. And He did decide to bring into the world all who have born, knowing that many would not believe. God's purpose was to show the angels who rebelled against Him that they were without excuse. The angels had been in the presence of God. They had had access to the third heaven. And yet they rebelled. God's purpose was to show that a lower creature (man), inferior to the angels in every way, having only volition in common with the angels, never having seen God in His glory, never having been in the throne room of God, could choose for God. Not that every man would choose for God, but that among man, some would believe. And these God would save, and leave in condemnation all who rejected Him.



And God demonstrated His mercy at the cross. He made salvation possible. But salvation becomes an actuality only to those who believe in Christ.



No He does not.

Gen 6:13 'Then God said to Noah. ''The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them (the Nephilim), and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.



Absolutely God believes in justice. God IS justice. Just as much as He is love. The slightest sin against eternal, and infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment. It is not the length of time that it took to commit a sin that determines the severity of the punishment, it is the nature of the act. And against eternal, infinite, and perfect God, the slightest sin is deserving of an eternal penalty.



God does forgive those who come to Him for forgiveness. No, our sins are not committed only out of ignorance. God gave the Law to Israel to show what God expects of man, and to show that man can't keep the law and therefore is in need of a Savior.

Now are there sins committed in ignorance? Yes. But man also sins willingly, knowing full well what He is doing. And whether you knew something was a sin or not, you wanted to do it and you did it. Ignorance is no excuse..




As stated above, the least sin against God who is perfect and infinitely holy, is deserving of eternal punishment.




God's love never gets in the way of His justice. When God's mercy is rejected, then God's justice must come into play. God is perfect and infinitely holy. Therefore, no creature who possesses anything less than a righteousness equal to God's can not have an eternal relationship with God. He must instead be eternally separated from God.

But when anyone accepts Christ as Savior, then God imputes His righteousness to that person and declares him justified.



To the contrary. God is perfectly just. His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. There will be torment in hell. But hell is not Dante's version of hell.

Matthew 8:29 [with reference to demons] 'And behold, they cried out, saying, ''What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?''

Mark 5:7 [with reference to a demon] 'And crying out with a loud voice, he said, ''What do I have to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me.''

Revelation 20:10 'And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 'Then He will say also to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed nes, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46] ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.




God has made Himself known through His creation. Therefore all are without excuse. At the point of God consciousness, the point when you develop the mental ability to be able to conceive of a supreme being, God holds you responsible. Anyone who is curious about God at the moment of God consciousness, will at some point before they die, receive the Gospel. Geographic isolation is not an issue. Positive volition at God consciousness does not necessarly mean there will be positive volition at Gospel hearing.




Every universalist distorts God's love into something that it isn't. God is love. But His love never causes God to compromise His justice. To this the universalist will reply ''but God's justice comes from His love.'' They are two different things. And God's love will not cause God to lay aside His justice.

All men are not children of God. Only those who have believed in Christ are ADOPTED as sons. The believer is a son by adoption (Rom 8:15; Eph1:5).

Universalists routinely ignore what the Scriptures say. They ignore what Jesus Himself said while on earth concerning hell. People reject the Scriptures because they do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. To these people the Bible is merely a work of man and so they dismiss what they don't like, but then they promote universalism using the very same Bible which according to them is a fallible book written by fallible men.
Mike wrote ...

Quote:
"He made salvation possible" ...
The above is the beginning and end of his false gospel, and the reason why he is missing the mark.

God did not only make salvation possible for the world in Christ. He out and out saved the world ... Its not a matter of "if" or "but", its a matter of fact. God IS the savior of all people, either you believe that or you don't. And Christ DOES justify the ungodly, either you believe that or you don't.

Some of us dont need word games.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:41 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,821,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I know of parents who have murdered their children because they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment. I guess it worked---the children certainly didn't end up in hell, but the parents went to prison for life to save them. No greater love and all that, I guess.
And I know of a guy who swallowed his glass eye. And when he couldn't pass it ... the guy tried to blame the eye doctor.

To which the Doctor said:
"Well... It's all in the eye of the beholder"
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:42 PM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
thats the whole reason that i wrote number 1--He obviously kne we were goin to burn in hell,so why create a child knowing that brutal destiny awaits it...i cant understand why you cant see that,oh yeah you have to beleive the bible,but what interpretation you beleive is up to you,there are others and the UR's could teach you other ways to perceive these things
There is but one way to correctly interpret the Bible.

Universalism appeals to those who choose not to face realilty, and instead create a god to their own liking. Satan inspired the teaching of universalism for just such people.

Universalists routinely distort the scriptures and give them meanings which are not inherent to them. The Bible, and in the Greek, is clear that people who die without Christ are lost forever. It is a rare person who is entrapped in the false teaching of universalism who will find the objectivity to see the error of his belief. The more a universalist is exposed to the truth and then rejects it, the deeper he slides into deception and the more tightly that deception entraps him. He may or may not be saved, but in either case, he is an enemy of the cross. A loser in the spiritual warfare which rages all about us.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is but one way to correctly interpret the Bible.
Too bad you haven't found it yet.
Quote:
Universalism appeals to those who choose not to face realilty, and instead create a god to their own liking. Satan inspired the teaching of universalism for just such people.

Universalists routinely distort the scriptures and give them meanings which are not inherent to them. The Bible, and in the Greek, is clear that people who die without Christ are lost forever. It is a rare person who is entrapped in the false teaching of universalism who will find the objectivity to see the error of his belief. The more a universalist is exposed to the truth and then rejects it, the deeper he slides into deception and the more tightly that deception entraps him. He may or may not be saved, but in either case, he is an enemy of the cross. A loser in the spiritual warfare which rages all about us.
Compare the attributes typically assigned to Satan (vis-a-vis torture, torment, evil, etc.) with those that should be God's (the opposite: love, mercy, compassion, long-suffering, patience, etc.) . . . then try to apply some semblance of logic and reason about which of them is the likeliest author of what you believe, Mike. It is very obvious to the URs. Try to find that objectivity you claim the URs lack!
 
Old 01-08-2011, 08:02 PM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
Reputation: 7433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You just proved my point.
Here is what you believe:

Jesus paid for all your sins.

If you don't believe Jesus paid for all your sins then Jesus did not pay for all your sins.

ergo: Jesus did pay for all your sins but it was a worthless act.
To the contrary. Jesus paid for your sins whether you believe in Him or not. It seems not to matter how many times I say it, but sin is not the issue in salvation. Your sins have been paid for and will never be mentioned by God at the Great white throne judgment of unbelievers. When a person dies having rejected Christ, he does not have the righteousness which God imputed to those who believe in Christ and therefore must stand on his own relative human righteousness - his deeds. His good works. God always rejects human good, both in the believer and in the unbeliever. In the case of the unbeliever, it is his human good which condemns him to the lake of fire forever as per Revelation 20:11-15.

Yes the unbeliever dies in his sins, but he is not judged for them, because Jesus was already judged for them. And per the law of double jeopardy, those sins cannot be judged again.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,250 posts, read 10,020,659 times
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Default God is willing, Man is not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So which is it that you believe:

1.) God is unable to save all.
2.) God is unwilling to save all.
How about the fact that man has every day for an entire lifetime to believe and trust God, but, refuses and continues in mockery and rebellion against God. Should God then drag them kicking and screaming into heaven and relationship with Him?

God is able and willing, but man is not. Or, do you prefer puppets who have no free will of their own?
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